The FOBT debate, to ban or not to ban.

[McRamFan]

The betting industry alone is reported to contribute £6 billion as of January 2010, 0.5% of GDP. Furthermore, it employs over 100,000 people and generates £700 Million in tax revenue.

It's a cash cow for the gov. Just like cigs booze and fuel. I wonder if there is a correlation between the decrease of cig tax and increase in betting tax, through the greater increase in high street betting shops?

[G STAR RAM]

28 minutes ago, David said:

No real counter arguments though is there? 

Provide the help for those that are ready to admit they have a problem, help them get over their addictions. 

Tougher restrictions for the gambling industry.

Everyone is a winner excuse the pun. 

There are plenty of counter arguments for why these places exist. 

The 3 main points I referred to in a previous post.

It's easy to say tougher regulations but what would you propose?

The gambling industry is already stringently regulated, licensed adult gaming centres are not allowed these machines in yet 'bookmakers' are. Got to be some reason behind that don't you think?!

For people that can admit to an addiction there is plenty of help available (I believe) it's the people that cannot admit the addiction that need the help.

[Day]

15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

There are plenty of counter arguments for why these places exist. 

The 3 main points I referred to in a previous post.

It's easy to say tougher regulations but what would you propose?

The gambling industry is already stringently regulated, licensed adult gaming centres are not allowed these machines in yet 'bookmakers' are. Got to be some reason behind that don't you think?!

For people that can admit to an addiction there is plenty of help available (I believe) it's the people that cannot admit the addiction that need the help.

It's not something I have really sat down and thought about but gambling account cards with  photo that have an automatic monthly gambling limit assigned to it (percentage of a minimum paid job), one that you can lower but not increase without proof of earnings, 30 days before the increase kicks in.

Account number to be attached to online accounts, swiped when using machines?

Extreme? Maybe but was something knocked up in a couple of minutes. 

Gambling is fun, I do it, not looking to make people feel bad for gambling, just protection for those that don't know when to stop.

[Shang]

Can't believe people arguing against not having some sort of management of this. Yes people will still be addicts but at least they won't financially ruin themselves and families as quickly.

Currently the campaigns tell you to stop when the "fun" stops. That isn't a tangible barrier, I'm sure some addicts have fun until they realise they've lost it all. There needs to be something like having a "log in" session where it can detect who's on the machine and how long for, and how much they've spent. Connected to a central system that'll prevent you from logging into any other machine for a week. Repeated losses over a long period of time and you get a call from a gambling addiction charity.

First thoughts just off the top of my head, but the urgent quick fix is to make sure you can't lose money at such a rate. 3 grand in an hour and a half is unbelievable.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, Shang said:

Can't believe people arguing against not having some sort of management of this. Yes people will still be addicts but at least they won't financially ruin themselves and families as quickly.

Currently the campaigns tell you to stop when the "fun" stops. That isn't a tangible barrier, I'm sure some addicts have fun until they realise they've lost it all. There needs to be something like having a "log in" session where it can detect who's on the machine and how long for, and how much they've spent. Connected to a central system that'll prevent you from logging into any other machine for a week. Repeated losses over a long period of time and you get a call from a gambling addiction charity.

First thoughts just off the top of my head, but the urgent quick fix is to make sure you can't lose money at such a rate. 3 grand in an hour and a half is unbelievable.

What is the difference between losing 3 grand in an hour though or losing it over one week?

If gambling addicts have 3 grand that they are willing to put in machines, is the length of time they take to lose it the real issue? 

[G STAR RAM]

23 minutes ago, David said:

It's not something I have really sat down and thought about but gambling account cards with  photo that have an automatic monthly gambling limit assigned to it (percentage of a minimum paid job), one that you can lower but not increase without proof of earnings, 30 days before the increase kicks in.

Account number to be attached to online accounts, swiped when using machines?

Extreme? Maybe but was something knocked up in a couple of minutes. 

Gambling is fun, I do it, not looking to make people feel bad for gambling, just protection for those that don't know when to stop.

Some good suggestions there to be fair.

Once their limit has been reached and they are stood in a bookies though what do you think would happen next?

[Day]

26 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Some good suggestions there to be fair.

Once their limit has been reached and they are stood in a bookies though what do you think would happen next?

Go down the pub and have a couple whilst the Mrs goes and does the shopping

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Go down the pub and have a couple whilst the Mrs goes and does the shopping

Don't forget their will fruit machines in the pub...

[Mafiabob]

12 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

May sound a silly question but...

To be an addict does there have to be something to be addicted to? 

Or is it a personality trait that means you will find something to become addicted to?

All for can say it's about crossing the invisible line with said addiction....

[Mafiabob]

12 hours ago, David said:

I see you battling with a lot of people on Twitter about this, I know you're big on accepting responsibility for your actions which is true, they should.

It maybe also be true that gambling addicts right now will move on to new ways to bet to feed their addiction, but what about the 10 year olds now that are unaware of gambling?

Would it be great not to see those debt machines around when they are old enough to gamble along with other measures to prevent another generation of people putting themselves into severe financial situations?

I can see why you get peoples backs up and get blocked as it can come across as a be a man like me whilst they are campaigning for change which may help potential gamblers of tomorrow not just today.

I can't see why I get blocked, I share a story which is honest, I ask questions politely. All I get off the lobby groups is the following which I've had from the lobby groups and those who oppose the FOBT.

I'm a plant for the government.

I'm a plant for the gambling industry.

I don't care about addicts.

I'm smug and shouldn't talk about the industry or products.

I'm a apologist for bookmakers.

I'm not helping.

I'm negative.

I'm a shrill.

I'm a god botherer.

I'm a liar.

I'm brainwashed.

There is many others too.... all I ask 90% of the time is them two questions. Not one agree to answer them. If that's getting someone's back up then I'm sorry I have a point. 

[Shang]

50 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

What is the difference between losing 3 grand in an hour though or losing it over one week?

If gambling addicts have 3 grand that they are willing to put in machines, is the length of time they take to lose it the real issue? 

Someone could step in to stop them? Having to stay still and sit at a machine for 3 days rather than an hour and a half gives more time for people to think things through.

[Mafiabob]

10 hours ago, BurtonRam7 said:

Haven't read this thread, but I know enough of your views on this to know I disagree with you on the FOBT issue. However, that's not the point I'm making here.

What I was wondering is why you still call yourself a gambling addict? I know it's not ideal that you have to restrain from place any bets out fear of returning to the habit, but don't you think you could give yourself a pat on the back and stop labelling yourself with that term? Would be interested to know why you still class yourself as an addict. Congratulations on so many years without a bet by the way.

Hardest thing I do is pat myself in the back, it's like an emabrrasement for me when I do something good, normal even. We as addicts are either sky high or down in the dumps, with nothing in between. We look to be boring and just try and get on with everyday life.

Regarding why I still call myself an addict..... length of time matters one jot. I can always slip back and the next bet is a simple click on the laptop or a drive to the bookies.

Give you a case in point. Phillip Seymour Hoffman. Clean from heroin for 27 years I think. Overdoses and dies. The addiction is always there and have to be wary of it ever returns. 99% certain I'll never gamble again, have to keep that 1% in check. 

Thanks for the praise. I'll fight until I conk out. 

[Day]

1 minute ago, Mafiabob said:

I can't see why I get blocked, I share a story which is honest, I ask questions politely. All I get off the lobby groups is the following which I've had from the lobby groups and those who oppose the FOBT.

I'm a plant for the government.

I'm a plant for the gambling industry.

I don't care about addicts.

I'm smug and shouldn't talk about the industry or products.

I'm a apologist for bookmakers.

I'm not helping.

I'm negative.

I'm a shrill.

I'm a god botherer.

I'm a liar.

I'm brainwashed.

There is many others too.... all I ask 90% of the time is them two questions. Not one agree to answer them. If that's getting someone's back up then I'm sorry I have a point. 

I can see the not helpful accusation, the others are probably out of frustration. 

They are campaigning for change, you're saying it's all on the person when it should be a joint effort.

Share your success story to help, advise, be an ear for those that want to stop, but also recognise that a change could prevent the next generation falling down the same trap.

Shouldn't be working against each other. My opinion anyhow, and I think that's why you probably get blocked as it's not helpful to their campaigns. 

If you don't believe there should be change, without treading on their toes try and reach out and work with other organisations that share the same views.

Twitter and 140chars is a horrible place to have any meangingful discussion on the topic anyhow, why I offered to help record stuff for you 

[Mafiabob]

9 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

As an addict (I don't know if it's wrong to say ex-addict). I hope you're coping well mafia.

What kind of things are discussed during re-hab or counselling pal? I'm sure it probably already happens but are you given the opportunity to negotiate an allowance to allow you to still satisfy the urge to gamble? Would something like that work potentially?  Is it discussed or are you expected to go cold turkey straight away?

I think I understand what you mean when you say banning the machines wouldn't solve the issue cos addicts would still need to gamble. 

Could something really radical like a tag work, for those who are in serious trouble with their addiction. Maybe a pre paid token, with a certain number of nominal value bets/plays available activated by the tag and once it's empty you can't gamble anymore.

I don't know if it's solvable pal, lots of people want lots of people to gamble, people want people to lose money  as without that they wouldn't make a penny. It's not a not for profit organisation that builds/licenses/markets these machines unfortunately.

Cheers Ronnie. Basically it's talking about how your week is, and trying to be normal Ronnie. As you say, especially at the start, I had no access to my credit or debit cards, my wife fully controlled my accounts. We have to put certain barriers in place. All about breaking the triangle of time, opportunity and money. All three come together then I have a massive problem. What do I do? I phone someone, I take myself out the situation. I may message someone. 

Think education is the best thing for this addiction. As @David alluded to for helping younger folk. We have sex education, drug education and stuff about smoking and drinking when we were young..... why not have education about gambling? It's become normalised in the last twenty years or so and should be educated about.

[Mafiabob]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

No-one and themselves. Of course.

Now what positive thingscdo FOBTs bring?

Win money like many do and walk away, like any other form of gambling where you can win or lose, people know there's a chance you'll lose.

[Day]

1 minute ago, Mafiabob said:

I had no access to my credit or debit cards, my wife fully controlled my accounts.

Just normal married life isn't it?  

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, Shang said:

Someone could step in to stop them? Having to stay still and sit at a machine for 3 days rather than an hour and a half gives more time for people to think things through.

Where is your cut off point though.

Let someone put £100 in a machine them tell them that's enough and let someone else go on it and try and win their money?

£3000 in an hour to the average man is ridiculous, to a lottery winner it could be a drop in the ocean.

[Mafiabob]

3 minutes ago, David said:

I can see the not helpful accusation, the others are probably out of frustration. 

They are campaigning for change, you're saying it's all on the person when it should be a joint effort.

Share your success story to help, advise, be an ear for those that want to stop, but also recognise that a change could prevent the next generation falling down the same trap.

Shouldn't be working against each other. My opinion anyhow, and I think that's why you probably get blocked as it's not helpful to their campaigns. 

If you don't believe there should be change, without treading on their toes try and reach out and work with other organisations that share the same views.

Twitter and 140chars is a horrible place to have any meangingful discussion on the topic anyhow, why I offered to help record stuff for you 

I've said that to these guys, offered to meet, even had discussions through DM. I ask the questions and I've told them they'll be hard hitting journos etc who will delve much much deeper than I would, I'm even trying to help them. But you go down the TLs anyone interacting with them, and it's hard to debate properly when there's pictures off cereal and sweets etc and they are accusing Kellogg's etc of grooming children to bet etc. 

[Day]

Just now, Mafiabob said:

I've said that to these guys, offered to meet, even had discussions through DM. I ask the questions and I've told them they'll be hard hitting journos etc who will delve much much deeper than I would, I'm even trying to help them. But you go down the TLs anyone interacting with them, and it's hard to debate properly when there's pictures off cereal and sweets etc and they are accusing Kellogg's etc of grooming children to bet etc. 

Probably best just ignoring them then, focus your efforts on helping those that need it than wasting time arguing with campaigners. How many have blocked you now? Just not worth it. 

[Shang]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where is your cut off point though.

Let someone put £100 in a machine them tell them that's enough and let someone else go on it and try and win their money?

£3000 in an hour to the average man is ridiculous, to a lottery winner it could be a drop in the ocean.

But what lottery winners / rich people are gonna be playing on FOBTs in a Ladbrokes? These are placed in places where the poor and disadvantaged spend a lot of time. 

I'd rather people lose £100 than lose £3000 trying to win it all back.