G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Only a small point but I'm pretty sure Shackell was sold in July and therefore wouldn't be in this set of accounts? Sale was reported on 5 July but the agreement may well have been made before then and so have creeped into these accounts. Even still the incoming transfer fees for the following year are stated in the post balance sheet events at £1.3million. With this figure including Maguire and Davies I certainly hope the Shackell fee is included in the accounts to June 2012! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Jason Shackell was sold on the 5/07/12 so wont be in! See my next post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I struggle to see how the cash injection has fallen so significantly on the previous year, although it would appear that the money is 'drip fed' as if I remember correctly the amount stated in PBSE last year was £5.3million and this ended up closer to £9million The fall in commercial and merchandising income both very disappointing and don't see them turning that round much in next years accounts. I wonder if they have been able to keep match receipts pretty stable with the increase in prices balancing out the faliing attendances? Add on to this the additional capex for the screens and I can't see how the cash injection would have fallen by £5 or £6 million. I think you may be right re the 'revolving loan being re-utilised. I wonder why they made no mention of the sudden repayment of this in the accounts. I wonder if the terms were becoming more onerous with falling season ticket numbers? Well,of course it may just indicate a smaller cash loss.Don't forget this year's injection wouldn't have needed to be so large without the paydown of the revolving loan.Also,the half year savings on Pearson,Leacock.Byewater etc would convert to full year savings this year.Green and one or two others have also left,so even though we've had additions,they're probably on much lower wages. The CAPEX (capital expenditure,for those who didn't realise) may have featured phased payments,just as the 11/12 asset purchases appear to have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Only a small point but I'm pretty sure Shackell was sold in July and therefore wouldn't be in this set of accounts? ...and of course you're right-I should have been talking about the player sales in PBSE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Sale was reported on 5 July but the agreement may well have been made before then and so have creeped into these accounts. Even still the incoming transfer fees for the following year are stated in the post balance sheet events at £1.3million. With this figure including Maguire and Davies I certainly hope the Shackell fee is included in the accounts to June 2012! From having a look back at the dates of the reports we apparently rejected a bid on the 3rd so I cant see that it was done in that set of accounts. Post balance sheet events only need to be disclosed if material so I'd suggest that the Maguire fee wouldnt be and wouldn't be mentioned. Not sure on the Davies one though. That was quite a bit after the year end and maybe after the audit report was signed? I think that the £1.3 is probably Shackell and maybe theres possible further conditions we may get money for down the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Well,of course it may just indicate a smaller cash loss.Don't forget this year's injection wouldn't have needed to be so large without the paydown of the revolving loan.Also,the half year savings on Pearson,Leacock.Byewater etc would convert to full year savings this year.Green and one or two others have also left,so even though we've had additions,they're probably on much lower wages. The CAPEX (capital expenditure,for those who didn't realise) may have featured phased payments,just as the 11/12 asset purchases appear to have done. Good points. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 From having a look back at the dates of the reports we apparently rejected a bid on the 3rd so I cant see that it was done in that set of accounts. Post balance sheet events only need to be disclosed if material so I'd suggest that the Maguire fee wouldnt be and wouldn't be mentioned. Not sure on the Davies one though. That was quite a bit after the year end and maybe after the audit report was signed? I think that the £1.3 is probably Shackell and maybe theres possible further conditions we may get money for down the line? Audit report signed 26 November 2012, way after Davies left. If you think Shackell is not included in the 2012 accounts then that would mean combined fee for Shackell and Davies of £1.3million (and thats assuming that Maguire has not been disclosed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Sale was reported on 5 July but the agreement may well have been made before then and so have creeped into these accounts. Even still the incoming transfer fees for the following year are stated in the post balance sheet events at £1.3million. With this figure including Maguire and Davies I certainly hope the Shackell fee is included in the accounts to June 2012! You're quite right about the net proceeds being £1.3m.I mistakenly gave the net book value of the players sold by mistake.As this would include Maguire/Savies/Shackell,I still doubt we made much of a profit on Shackell. The net book value of sales(£633k) might indicate Shackell was included.Maguire's cost would have been reduced by 1 year's amortisation,and Savies net book value would be very little as he's been here a number of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Audit report signed 26 November 2012, way after Davies left. If you think Shackell is not included in the 2012 accounts then that would mean combined fee for Shackell and Davies of £1.3million (and thats assuming that Maguire has not been disclosed) Hmmm thats a strange one. I just struggle to see how they could include the Shackell sale in the June 2012 accounts. Theres a possibility that materiality would be approx £1 mil if based on assets and therefore Davies could also drop in under that too? I think they only disclose consideration that is highly probable within the note so anything based on appearances etc wouldn't be included. My gut feeling is that that is the up front Shackell fee but could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archram Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 As always, many thanks to Ramblur. Please take care of your health, it's much more important than dcfc finances! I don' t always understand it all but enough to be grateful that someone does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 You're quite right about the net proceeds being £1.3m.I mistakenly gave the net book value of the players sold by mistake.As this would include Maguire/Savies/Shackell,I still doubt we made much of a profit on Shackell. The net book value of sales(£633k) might indicate Shackell was included.Maguire's cost would have been reduced by 1 year's amortisation,and Savies net book value would be very little as he's been here a number of years. Luke Varney was sold in Jul 2011 and would be in this set of accounts. He would carry net book value similar to that figure id imagine so a fair chunk of that could be him and therefore Shackell therefore isn't included? Shackell apparently cost £1 mil and had a 3 year contract so you'd expect he would carry a net book value of £660k ish on his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hmmm thats a strange one. I just struggle to see how they could include the Shackell sale in the June 2012 accounts. Theres a possibility that materiality would be approx £1 mil if based on assets and therefore Davies could also drop in under that too? I think they only disclose consideration that is highly probable within the note so anything based on appearances etc wouldn't be included. My gut feeling is that that is the up front Shackell fee but could be wrong. My guess is that the reporters were way off the mark and late with their reporting and the deal had been agreed prior to 30 June 2012. There seems very little reason for them only to report material sales. Of course the £1.3 could be stated after any sell on clauses had been paid which could potentially increase the £1.3 to say £1.6 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 My guess is that the reporters were way off the mark and late with their reporting and the deal had been agreed prior to 30 June 2012. There seems very little reason for them only to report material sales. Of course the £1.3 could be stated after any sell on clauses had been paid which could potentially increase the £1.3 to say £1.6 million? Yeah again either of us could be write its all guesswork really. I'd be suprised if the deal had gone through 5 days prior to him being unveiled at Burnley but then again I don't really know much about football transfers so I dont know. With the post balance sheet events they are only forced to disclose material sales. Most companies disclose as little as possible and therefore wouldnt disclose anything they dont have too. Our board are especially keen on that with the undisclosed fees etc. I'm not saying your wrong because I dont know but I dont think the figures stack up to Shackell being included. The sales in the accounts are more likely to be the business done in summer 2011 like Varney etc in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 From having a look back at the dates of the reports we apparently rejected a bid on the 3rd so I cant see that it was done in that set of accounts. Post balance sheet events only need to be disclosed if material so I'd suggest that the Maguire fee wouldnt be and wouldn't be mentioned. Not sure on the Davies one though. That was quite a bit after the year end and maybe after the audit report was signed? I think that the £1.3 is probably Shackell and maybe theres possible further conditions we may get money for down the line? Auditors' report was signed 30/11/12,so plenty of time for Davies to be included.I think someone on another forum commented on the fact that past PBSE disclosures didn't seem too material,and I wouldn't discount Maguire being added in there.It may be that materiality is based on the aggregate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Whichever set of accounts the Shackell fee are included in it appears my information from a Burnley shareholder about the fee being £1.7million were wide of the mark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Luke Varney was sold in Jul 2011 and would be in this set of accounts. He would carry net book value similar to that figure id imagine so a fair chunk of that could be him and therefore Shackell therefore isn't included? Shackell apparently cost £1 mil and had a 3 year contract so you'd expect he would carry a net book value of £660k ish on his own? Varney would have appeared in PBSE for 10/11,not this year.Think you've made the same mistake I made earlier! I've seen PBSE on both sales and purchases way below the £1m you speculated on earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Audit report signed 26 November 2012, way after Davies left. If you think Shackell is not included in the 2012 accounts then that would mean combined fee for Shackell and Davies of £1.3million (and thats assuming that Maguire has not been disclosed) Just a tiny point,in case people think I'm seeing things,the club signed off the accounts on 26 November,with the auditors following suit on the 30th.Doesn't affect the argument though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Something which I have only just picked up on (even though I assume it was in the accounts last year) is the repayment date for the mortgage which must be repaid within 5 years. I wonder where the cash for this is coming from or if the club will look to re-mortgage. I doubt we would get such a good deal as last time. I really can't understand how a bank would give a mortgage on a football ground which is only worth the ground that it is built on yet turn down so many people desparate for a home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Cash actually received for player sales in 11/12 amounted to £921k.As we were owed £519k at the start of the year,and £823k at the end,the figure (represented by amounts received and still to be received)which actually related to 11/12 sales is £921k+£823k-£519k =£1.225m. Can't even remember if anyone other than Varney went that year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Cash actually received for player sales in 11/12 amounted to £921k.As we were owed £519k at the start of the year,and £823k at the end,the figure (represented by amounts received and still to be received)which actually related to 11/12 sales is £921k+£823k-£519k =£1.225m. Can't even remember if anyone other than Varney went that year! Arnaud Mendy - Macclesfield - Free - 01 Jul, 2011 Luke Varney - Portsmouth - Signed - 07 Jul, 2011 Chris Porter - Sheff Utd - Free - 15 Jul, 2011 Stephen Bywater - Sheff Wed - Free - 02 Jan, 2012 Dave Martin - Southend - Signed - 04 Jan, 2012 Tomasz Cywka - Reading - Free - 26 Jan, 2012 James Severn - Ssausagehorpe - Free - 17 May, 2012 Stephen Pearson - Bristol C - Signed - 07 Jun, 2012 Paul Green - Leeds - Free - 20 Jun, 2012 Chris Maguire - Sheff Wed - Signed - 21 Jun, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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