7.9m loss to June 2012

[ramblur]

The Gellaw accounts show that interest due (from DCFC) and payable to General Sports Derby UK (and thence on to the investors)amounted to £626k (up from £294k the previous year).This now appears to merit an explanation from the club concerning which loan capital is interest free and which isn't.I worked on the basis last year that the interest related to the £1.7m GSE loan (although the interest in 10/11 was up on 9/10,I assumed that 9/10 represented a part year only.).However,we've now had 2 full consecutive years,which paints a different picture.

Total accrued interest now stands at £1.073m-although it remains accrued,it doesn't mean to say it won't be paid some time in the future.

There's another niggle I've got to try and sort out.The Gellaw accounts show both debtors and creditors figures of £18.934m (loan capital + accrued interest),but the loan principal element appears to be £17.861m (as opposed to the £18.533m which appears to be shown in DCFC,a difference of £672k.

The first thing that came into my head was that £672k of a previous loan had been repaid out of the new capital,but I can't immediately see this in DCFC.Others may well have the enthusiasm to look into this,but please don't bounce anything off me! I'm not going to even attempt to look at this further until I've a crystal clear head,and that won't be today.

If it helps,I've looked at the position in GS Derby UK (the company,as opposed to consolidated) balance sheet,which shows £30.291m classed as "Investment" and £17.861m (after stripping out accrued interest) as a debtor figure (Gellaw),which gives £48.152m in total).This is a reconciliation I do every year,to make sure I've got the individual components I've gleaned right,and it's always reconciled before.I'm out by this £600k+ here as well.

Just when I've managed to agree a total investment figure with what appears in the directors' report as well! I suppose you could always argue £x had been invested,even if £y had been taken out subsequently (if that's what happened,which I haven't nailed down yet).

[ramblur]

As always, many thanks to Ramblur.

Please take care of your health, it's much more important than dcfc finances! I don' t always understand it all but enough to be grateful that someone does!

Thanks,archram,I'm taking your advice and going for a long break now!

[ramblur]

Arnaud Mendy - Macclesfield - Free - 01 Jul, 2011

Luke Varney - Portsmouth - Signed - 07 Jul, 2011

Chris Porter - Sheff Utd - Free - 15 Jul, 2011

Stephen Bywater - Sheff Wed - Free - 02 Jan, 2012

Dave Martin - Southend - Signed - 04 Jan, 2012

Tomasz Cywka - Reading - Free - 26 Jan, 2012

James Severn - Ssausagehorpe - Free - 17 May, 2012

Stephen Pearson - Bristol C - Signed - 07 Jun, 2012

Paul Green - Leeds - Free - 20 Jun, 2012

Chris Maguire - Sheff Wed - Signed - 21 Jun, 2012

So,looking at that,we might be able to add Martin and Pearson to Varney for 11/12.Are you sure Porter went on a free?

[Animal is a Ram]

So,looking at that,we might be able to add Martin and Pearson to Varney for 11/12.Are you sure Porter went on a free?

Yeah, we released him, then the Blades signed him

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14169565

[Martyn]

So,looking at that,we might be able to add Martin and Pearson to Varney for 11/12.Are you sure Porter went on a free?

No, not at all lol! I just ripped it off Soccerbase, which is mostly but not sure if always correct.

For instance, for 12/13 Paul Green is listed as "Free" - that's not right is it???

[top 6 finish]

Agree and disagree with that (if thats possible) a true Derby fan who's blind love nearly sent us to the wall and left us in the clutches of the 3 amigos.

Gave us 12 great years but not knowing when to stop put us perilously close to going out of business!

I think it would be wise to leave the issue of the late Mr.Pickering out of this discussion.There are serious

reasons for what happened and he is still widely and rightly loved by thousands of rams fans and others.

In the last 18 months or so of his ownership he became seriously ill and was not responsible for much of

his actions and decisions that were made.I cant go into this because it is very upsetting still.

[ramblur]

Right,not much left to do,so will get it all out of the way.

Interest payable (as opposed to what was actually paid) came to £1.398m gross (£1.387m net).This comprised of £455k in respect of bank loans/overdraft ,which must be the PP loan essentially.Finance charges(HP etc) were £2k,and other loans (taken to be loan capital+revolving loan) 941K.

We owed £889k in respect of players' regs purchases at year end.

Player additions for the year were broken down thus:- Fees £2.071m,agents' fees/league levy etc £626k,giving a total of £2.697m.

You might note that this time the add ons represented 30%,which is a new high,and the possibilities for the £3.6m total in PBSE need adjusting accordingly (could be £2.8m fees on that basis).

Contingent Liabilities shows that £666k (£267k 10/11) is the liability in respect of contractual signing bonuses,whereas £1.565m (£1.248m 10/11) is the maximum liability under sell on clauses.

GSE management charge of £60k was unpaid and carried forward as a creditor (along with £15k o/s from previous year).

In spite of what I said earlier,because it was gnawing at me,I went looking for this missing £672k.Despite various reconciliations and calculations I couldn't find it in DCFC,neither could I in the GS Derby UK consolidated accounts.

However,I got to thinking that because figures had to be submitted to the League by December 1st,and because the accounts were signed off in late November,there may well have been a rush on.It's in these kinds of situations where mistakes can happen -I'd imagine that the simplest accounts of the group,Gellaw and GS Sports derby UK(the company) were probably the last ones to be tackled.Because figures were shown as both debtors and creditors in Gellaw (ditto the other company) there's the possibility of a classic compensating error,which might be difficult to detect.Now I'm not casting aspersions and saying this happened,but the very possibility means I'm not going to spend hours looking for something which might not exist.Next year's accounts may clarify.

[ramblur]

Sale was reported on 5 July but the agreement may well have been made before then and so have creeped into these accounts.

Even still the incoming transfer fees for the following year are stated in the post balance sheet events at £1.3million. With this figure including Maguire and Davies I certainly hope the Shackell fee is included in the accounts to June 2012!

The £1.3m was designated as net proceeds,rather than fees,so may well be net of any instalments we owed to other clubs in respect of players concerned.The buying clubs have to lodge cash with the League,who then deduct any amounts o/s before passing the balance to us.I suspect this may have applied to Maguire and Shackell.

Last year(10/11) for instance,a relatively small PBSE figure for net proceeds converted to over £1m in gross proceeds in the 11/12 accounts.Still think you'd have to go some to reach £1.7m for Shackell,when you add Savies into the mix (not much,if anything o/s there).

[England Ram]

So, for my simple head now that Ramblur has done all the hard bit is to ask:-

So when all is said and done that we are just a little better off than we were the previous accounts, but still some way from being sustainable?

Thanks again Ramblur for your effort.

[ramblur]

Something which I have only just picked up on (even though I assume it was in the accounts last year) is the repayment date for the mortgage which must be repaid within 5 years.

I wonder where the cash for this is coming from or if the club will look to re-mortgage.

I doubt we would get such a good deal as last time. I really can't understand how a bank would give a mortgage on a football ground which is only worth the ground that it is built on yet turn down so many people desparate for a home!

The last bit is a worry-the banking landscape is totally different to when we first arranged the loan.It's ok for people to say "we'll just reborrow in 2016",but saying it may be a lot easier than pulling it off.

[ramblur]

I think you may be right re the 'revolving loan being re-utilised. I wonder why they made no mention of the sudden repayment of this in the accounts. I wonder if the terms were becoming more onerous with falling season ticket numbers?

Just to clarify,I only saw the re-utilisation as a possibility,I don't actually think it was done.Keeping this facility under control means we save cash flow on the interest charged (which we would have to pay in a timely manner).Now even if it were replaced by interest bearing loan capital,the owners would be able to decide if and when it is paid.I suspect the facility may now have reverted to a kind of emergency fund to be used if things aren't panning out as expected.

The other possibility,of course,is that the facility may be nearing the end of its contracted life.

[ramblur]

So, for my simple head now that Ramblur has done all the hard bit is to ask:-

So when all is said and done that we are just a little better off than we were the previous accounts, but still some way from being sustainable?

Thanks again Ramblur for your effort.

No problems.I forgot to mention that the directors' report signalled a loss for this year,but didn't give any idea of magnitude.I strongly believe the picture will be better.We're not going to be paying creditors down ad infinitum,and without things such as this in 11/12,the cash loss would have been nearer £3m.

[ramblur]

Never mentioned it before,but I always check on the amount owed to the Revenue at the year end.In 11/12 it was an undemanding £756k,compared to £1.443m the previous year.There'll always be something o/s as you couldn't possibly prepare and pay the June PAYE and vat by 30 June.The small amounts shown reflect credit on the owners.All in all,I'm very heartened by what I've seen.

[top 6 finish]

Never mentioned it before,but I always check on the amount owed to the Revenue at the year end.In 11/12 it was an undemanding £756k,compared to £1.443m the previous year.There'll always be something o/s as you couldn't possibly prepare and pay the June PAYE and vat by 30 June.The small amounts shown reflect credit on the owners.All in all,I'm very heartened by what I've seen.

So we can expect shitloads of money available for some quality players before the window closes,yes?

[ramblur]

So we can expect shitloads of money available for some quality players before the window closes,yes?

Wondered when that would surface.I always separate how well the club's being run from on field activities.Seeing as they said we were to be run sustainably a long time back,and many supported this stance,then those should have little cause for complaint (not suggesting you were one)-I just don't think most realised what this would entail.I've lost count of the number of times,mainly on other forums,that fans say "I know we have to be sustainable,but...." ,and you can guess what comes next.

If the sale of (or cementing into the team) ex Academy players doesn't pay dividends,I'm sure the owners would soon get severe earache.I had reservations,but am willing to give it a go.

[davenportram]

Paying down the revolving loan for me is the most significant thing - Season Ticket revenue is now available to use nearly in full the following year. Is that why cash loss or injections will be significantly less?

[top 6 finish]

Wondered when that would surface.I always separate how well the club's being run from on field activities.Seeing as they said we were to be run sustainably a long time back,and many supported this stance,then those should have little cause for complaint (not suggesting you were one)-I just don't think most realised what this would entail.I've lost count of the number of times,mainly on other forums,that fans say "I know we have to be sustainable,but...." ,and you can guess what comes next.

If the sale of (or cementing into the team) ex Academy players doesn't pay dividends,I'm sure the owners would soon get severe earache.I had reservations,but am willing to give it a go.

Certainly not me.You can depend on 2 certs from me.We will have to spend millions to get promotion and i have

no faith that it will happen with our present owners.Its all you can expect from American based business men who

dont understand the concepts of promotion and relegation or much else for that matter.

[ramblur]

Paying down the revolving loan for me is the most significant thing - Season Ticket revenue is now available to use nearly in full the following year. Is that why cash loss or injections will be significantly less?

The cash deficit on operations in 11/12 would have been closer to £3m (rather than £5m) if it hadn't been for the swings and roundabouts of debtor/creditor/stock movements.I don't expect a paydown of creditors to be much of an issue in 12/13.I also expect the wages to come in lower,and following the surprise increase (however small) in match receipts 11/12 v 10/11,I suspect the price increases this year might even rise it again (despite falling gates-it does mean far less freebies however).

The fact that S/T money would now be available is broadly neutral,as money wou;ld have been borrowed instead in the past.The difference is that interest payments are saved,which amounts to £200k+.

[ramblur]

Certainly not me.You can depend on 2 certs from me.We will have to spend millions to get promotion and i have

no faith that it will happen with our present owners.Its all you can expect from American based business men who

dont understand the concepts of promotion and relegation or much else for that matter.

I've said before, I think the base was too low before we entered this sustainability phase,but there's little you,me,or any other supporter can do about it.

[ramblur]

Just noticed that I failed to point out that the revised EBITDA figure of £2.99m should have had a minus sign in front (i.e.negative earnings).That's it,I'm off to kip.