May Contain Nuts

2 hours ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

However I was hoping to hear a more expanded rationale to maybe help me understand it a bit more

I'm not sure there's any great mystery behind it, I think you're looking for something deeper than there actually is.

It's no different to people calling Burton & Sheffield Utd our retirement homes when a handful of our ex-players ended up at each under Clough, or how some will call us Bristol City's feeder club because of Weimann, Roberts, Knight & Bird ending up there.  All of those teams have signed plenty of players from other teams and we've sold plenty of players to other teams.

Its just something people say without really thinking, a throwaway comment they don't really mean and/or haven't properly thought about deep down, but their idea of humourous / satirical take on the situation - granted it's tedious rather than actually being funny, but football fans aren't really known for their comedy genius.

The only really difference is that the 'joke' is at our own expense and not aimed at someone else, but it's still worth little more than an eye roll either way.

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

I fully expect CBT to be fit for the new season. He wasn't when he arrived and stayed that way. He has, indeed, been less than average apart from 1 decent cameo and his game against Pompey. If fit, we should see the player that did so well at Charlton.

Hopefully he can prove me wrong but I just see a player there who thrives in League One - although it's not like his numbers are extraordinary especially when you consider how much of Charlton's play was put through him - through pace alone but doesn't really have much in his locker against a higher standard of opposition, doesn't have a particularly good touch or awareness levels and isn't clever enough to deal with being doubled up on and offers very little defensively. Aside from the pace I've seen nothing to suggest he's a better footballer than Barkhuizen.

He's young enough to improve though. Always said he represents the perfect Paul Warne signing because that pace on the counter is sometimes invaluable. 

I'd caveat this with saying that I'm sure most Derby fans thought Antonio was a bit of a donkey when at Forest but he's had an excellent PL career. Wes Morgan another Forest player most thought would amount to nothing.

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

He took them up 3 times. #1 and #2 saw them immediately relegated. #3 was the season before last when we nicked him 9 games in.

IIRC, prior to the first promotion they did go down with him as gaffer as you describe

What isn't factored into the third season is the tendancy to see his sides fall away / have a big wobble toward the end of a season. It's been pointed out that the manager who replaced him had a worse PPG but there's a chance it could have happened anyway. They'll never have the squad depth to cover late season issues.

There's also every chance that they simply replaced Warne with a poorer manager. There are plenty of them, without it meaning he himself represents the upper echelons of football management.

I don't think being a League One promotion specialist means much in the grand scheme of things but it's clearly been beneficial to us to this point.

2 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said:

You've invalidated that argument well.

I would argue this adds weight to the argument that the reason Rotherham yo-yo'd is because they couldn't do major surgery

How many teams go up and do perform major surgery though? He added 8 then 9 new signings after each of the first two promotions

For 2021/22 he kept 13 players who were part of a successful League One promotion season and added 9 new players including the likes of West Harding, that keeper we're supposedly after, George Hirst who's done well at Ipswich, Josefzoon who we signed for £3m after a good spell at Rotherham & Lewis Wing - it's not ike he had a poor squad, he also had a number of players who've since established themselves as Championship players (Wiles, Barlaser), had Ladapo probably in his prime and a couple who've just stayed up with Sheff Weds.

I'd argue that this upcoming season is the most difficult he's had in his career, this past season the most straightforward 

57 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Correct....

I'd imagine that one of the reasons he came here was to be able to build a team that could compete in the championship.

Every other time he achieved promotion,his players were largely sold off without suitable replacements for the division.

This will be the first time he can actually start to compete and hopefully show his true ability to manage in the second tier.

2018/19 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 16 - 12 of who had made more than 25 appearances (8x 40 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 8 - only 2 who had who made over 25 appearances

2020/21 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 17 - 10 of who had made more than 25 appearances (7x 30 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 3 - again only 2 of who had made more than 25 appearance

The idea that he's had his squad ripped apart every time he's gone up is nonsense.

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

There seem to be multiple topics on this sort of theme, so apologies if this has been covered before, but I know that Warne struggled with Rotherham in the Championship whenever he got them promoted

Was that because he faced a similar issue of having built a squad designed to compete in L1, which then was largely dismantled at the end of the season?

I looked at this around a year ago, can't really remember or be bothered to think about what it represented but it's a list of players and appearance numbers over the course of Warne's time at Rotherham. You lose some players, you gain some players, you have some players consistent over multiple seasons.

A lot depends on how Clowes / Pearce actually define sustainability, while still putting out the message that we're not there just to make up the numbers.

The agreed business plan last season sounded pretty restrictive written down but in reality was about as effective as putting a paper muzzle on an XL Bully. Even at around 42% wages to turnover we managed to carry what was almost certainly the highest (player) wage bill in the league, to have a squad deep enough that every time we had some injuries there was always a rolling cast of returness of a similar standing to fill the void. The one time we didn't have a ready-made replacement on the books (when Collins got injured) we were able to sort it by almost immediately bringing in a free agent most other teams wouldn't have been able to offer a contract to), and we were able to pretty much waste £200-300k on an injured winger who we'd almost certainly have had for free in the summer anyway!

To what degree that 42% was David Clowes idea of sustainability and his knowledge of the advantage even that  gave us over most other L1 teams, and how much it was based on what the EFL would accept we don't know. We do know that UEFA believe 70% to be the target but we also know that Championship clubs pretty much entirely disregard that figure with the majority going well above that - in the Rowett season we were around 130% for a 6th place finish. I don't think Championship teams particularly have curtaled their spending since?

We may not be under enforced restrictions but self-imposed lmits still count. I'd certainly not say that the idea we may be more restricted this season that last is a fallacy it's just a matter of whether you're a stickler for certain definitions of certain words. This/last season we only really had to worry about ourselves and at worst we had 3-4 teams willing to pay more for individual players. In the Championship we're likely to be competing for players with teams, in double figures, willing to risk their sustainability to best us.

If we're going to dovert towards paying fees more often it will come at a cost of being able to get the best free agents. There's always a trade-off.

I'm not clued in on how much extra revenue being in the Championship gives us or what level 'our' 70% would put us at compared to others and I don't know how much above or below that figure Clowes is willing to go - as per the opening line.

I fear that to meet any expectation above maybe 18th we may struggle to fulfil the remit of being sustainable?

11 hours ago, S8TY said:

At least we won’t be linked with Lee Gregory all summer as he’s joined Mansfield …😬

Too early to declare. Just wait until the January transfer window when we've replaced Warne with Clough and it'll be ON.

Ebou Adams has been and will hopefully be a brilliant signing, but people mistake his ability to do the job of 2-3 players due to his sheer athleticism - most notable when he kept appearing on the left wing while CBT was hiding after his miss -  as a sign that the manager has got the midfield balance right tactically, but for that to be the case Fornah would have had a similar impact and the two would be almost interchangable.

There's no doubt that he transformed this team but suggestions that we'd have been promoted far earlier if he'd been here all season fall short of the mark because they fail to take into consideration the probability of him missing a large number of games through injury if asked to keep it up over the course of a full season. 5 games in a row without Adams this season and we'd have collapsed completely.

The 'cult of personality' surrounding also  Warne spells doom for whoever eventually replaces him. The whole thing about him being a refreshing change from the norm sets up any following manager,  accidentally or otherwise, for negative comparisons that some won't be able to let go of if he's not as interesting / charming a character as PW is.

Lewis Dobbin was far better than anyone we've bought in since and I'd love him to come back.

Claude Davis was a better defender than Richard Keogh, Keogh's just lucky we never saw him embarrass himself at Premier League level.

42 minutes ago, Returning ram said:

So what you're saying is that although Bird achieved more goals and assists in one season than he ever has in his career, it's solely down to the lower league he played in and is nothing to do with the manager.

Whereas DM who achieved his highest goal tally at Derby and then dropped down a league, has not scored any where near as many and wasn't even 2nd highest scorer is down to the manager who was playing another player in his position to get a decent transfer fee for him, which is more important than the team.

 

Makes perfect sense 😏

 

I never said either of those things.

22 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think you've misunderstood my use of that particular idiom, or maybe I chose it badly, but I simply meant that his achievements this season shouldn't be disregarded simply because he's been playing against inferior opponents.

The other part, I admit, I don't really get, because giving opinions on here will often lead to someone disagreeing and telling you so. 

They weren't disregarded, they were praised but with added context.

The only thing that's been disregarded is that he was playing below his ability.

My opinion hasn't been argued or disagree with, it's been summarily dismissed.

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

So he's stamped his class on the division despite having to play without an effective DM for much of the season. It's not really a stick to beat him with.

The phrase 'a stick to beat him with' really has become a ridiculously overused catchphrase on here and is exactly one of the reasons people feel unwelcome in contributing any opinion that doesn't 100% align with the echo chamber.

I've done nothing of the sort. I've praised his use as a more advanced midfielder as a contributory factory into his enhanced contribution..

1 hour ago, Returning ram said:

Remember same things being said about Mcgoldrick, haven't checked his stats but I guess he ripped the league up this year and got his best returns ever give its worst opponents he has ever faced 🤔

 

McGoldrick has barely been used as a striker this season, they've based their team around providing Langstaff with chances and he's delivered, even if the team overall didn't meet expectation. McG has been a support player, that may be a mistake made by their manager but for them if they can get £2-3m for their striker that's more valuable than getting more goals out of McG 

3 hours ago, Returning ram said:

Best season in return of goals and assists ever in Birds career. I think he will probably hope Bristol adapt a a style like Warnes, rather than some of the others he has had to play under 😏

As always you ignore the quality of opposition and that he's an mid-to-upper Championship player playing against the worst opposition he's ever faced in his career.

I don't really think the style of play will be the driving factor behind his decision in this case, but wouldn't totally disregard it as a factor.

I wouldn't say we 'played through' him as such (because our moments of control and flowing football have still been largely sporadic) but he's played further forward and been more directly involved in some key attacking moments, which I'm sure almost any footballer will love.

However, Warne's football will always require an extra physical effort (especially from the midfielders) and Bird has seen a marked increase in the number of games missed through injury with 3 separate spells of 'weeks out' since Warne came in. Maybe I'm misremembering but he didn't seem to pick up many injuries earlier in his career?

Now you may call coincidence and point at injuries elsewhere but Max is a self driven, self aware and intelligent lad so could potentially be thinking that's his body telling him that the deeper, more controlled and less physically demanding role he'd been playing up to this point (and where he can still have a big influence on games)  works best for him in terms of sustainability?

I'd mainly put it down to living in Bristol with his mates close by though.

"We've got big Dicks. We've got big Dicks"

When we signed Danny Dichio.

Next season's squad will certainly be interesting.

We're free of the league-agreed business plan, the level of obstruction and the impact it had on us in practical terms still very much debatable, but we'll still be working toward the aim of being sustainable and unlike in League One this past season we'll really have to make sure that we get value for money with our signings.

The starting lineup & bench come August 2024 will consist about 70-80% of players brought to the club by Warne, he won't be able to rely on the bulk of our minutes being played by those he inherited like he has this season, where his signings have contributed to an average of just 27% of our total minutes played, with 10 of his 15 signings contributing less than 30%.

Ultimately this season the means have justified the end, nearly all of the players have contributed at least something valuable to the cause, which speaks well of the preparedness of players even when they're dropping in and out, and we've achieved what we set out to achieve but I'd suggest it's rather unlikely we'll be able to get away such wastage next season.

Written down, it's difficult to argue that we were held back by the amount of money spent of pre-Warne signings or that they contribute a significantly higher sum to our wage bill than the players brought in this season.  In terms of VFM there's a clear distinction. That being said, you can say that it's to Warne's credit he got the most out of the players he inherited.

Hopefully there are more signings like Nelson & Adams to come, but we'll face far stronger competition for them without having the pull of being the biggest club in the division. News of us scouting abroad is encouraging, especially if it helps us find those players not on everybody else's radar.

We'll probably need to bring in a core of maybe 7-8 new players all capable of contributing to 60-80% of our minutes, if not higher IMO.

A big summer ahead, no doubt.

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

@May Contain Nuts

Please read @Archied s opening post above.

 

You can find other threads not so positive but the OP has specifically asked for posters to be positive about todays win. Its not really hard to find somewhere else to moan is it?

Fair point.

33 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

In recent posts, you talk about problematic individuals, the division on the forum, bullying, and horrible stuff being said towards those with doubts about Warne.

Yet in the past, you have called me an AI chatbot, a slick PR mastermind, a potential contestant on the Traitors, a fraud, a fictional character. And that’s only publicly.

Maybe you should reflect on your own posting style too?

I have said that your posts read as such...

...because rather often they do!

What's wrong with being a slick PR mastermind or a potential contestant on The Traitors, exactly? They were kind of meant as compiments, albeit backhanded ones. I'm genuinely impressed by your abilties in that regard (it takes a level of intelligence and charm I don't possess) even if I'm not a fan of how you use them. Honestly I think you could make a killing on that show, so to speak!

The disparity between your attitude toward Cocu and your attitude to Warne will always mark you out as a massive hypocrite in my eyes. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I've made an effort in the past week or so to drop the issue, and intended to carry that on, because I realised it was unfair to keep targetting your posts, and I'm really not that person.

I just don't buy your persona on here, again, I'm sorry for that but  I don't really think theres much you can do to change that over the internet. I've also said that i'm sure you're a lovely guy when not in posting mode. I'd rather be open about these things.

55 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Maybe this forum struggles with people who just intended to make a simple observation, but write it in language that sounds highly critical?

Instead of:

"Theb were on it for 15 minutes before we scored. Deathly silent before then despite the myth that standing up and making noise go hand in hand"

How about...

"Theb were on it for 15 minutes before we scored. Was quieter than I expected it to be beforehand though. I was hopeful the safe standing would have increased the noise, but so far it doesn't seem to have made an impact"

I'd be lying if I said that though.

I've never thought safe standing would improve things, I expected no change to the atmosphere. That said yeah, I hoped to be proved wrong.

19 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Not denying it but probably for similar reasons to yourself, I felt a certain element (who are still very active) are/were relentless in their negativity about Warne and started to bite in response to it, not because of some love of Warne more just through a genuine disbelief and irritation by such pessimistic comment. And for clarity I don’t mean the well articulated and reasoned words of a number of posters, just a certain few who won’t allow any credit to the man or his methods.

I took a week off the forum as it was genuinely intruding on my life and bringing me down, and it helped me realise that my thoughts and opinions on it are what they are, if other people feel differently that’s up to them, where I can have a reasonable conversation with people I will and if not, stuff it, people can enjoy their misery and I’ll carry on being a naively optimistic little soul. 

Aye.

Without getting all flowery, I think our discussions stand as proof against the idea everyone just has an entrenched view, and that's that.

I have some perfectly respectable conversations when I'm replying to posts such as this, and it frustrates me no end when someone comes along who is interested only in dismissing what's been said without first reading it properly and trying to understand what's been said.

25 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

In the here and now, you say?

Yet the original conversation stemmed from your comment about Warne’s past in the Championship and how you ‘daren’t mention it’…

OK, yes, in the here and now, we are 2nd and on a run where we have won more than 70% of our games. Is that not enough for you?

What advantages do we have over the two other main contenders Portsmouth and Bolton? Do you think we should be finishing above them and if we don’t, is that a failure in your eyes?

My here and now relates to your constant redirections to other teams' success or otherwise at this level, which is largely irrelevant because there are so many differences between us, them, the league, everything to the point that you really cant use what someone else did  - or is doing - as a measure of our own performance.

Is being 2nd and winning most games good enough for me? In isolation, in the short term, yes, of course. I can't just turn my brain off at that though.

Our advantage over Portsmouth and Bolton is that we have a manager who has such a good record of promotion out of this league, which in the short term should count for a lot. I've always said that we should be a top 3 team come the end of the season, and we're on course for that.

I'm not going to spew forth platitudes for someone meeting requirements though, maybe it seems harsh to some but I'm, judging Warne to a high standard, based on everything that's been said about him by those at the club.

I'm massively positive about the future of our club and it annoys me when people seem so obsessed with raking over the coals re: the administration/restrictions  in order to praise the manager for hitting par.

18 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

There’s been an accelerated shift in your tone on this matter, where I know you once looked to be balanced and had your concerns it does seem the more extreme pro-Warne posters have got to you. That’s the second time today I’ve seen you use a phrase saying Warne has fans wrapped around his little finger, which carries all kinds of connotation around manipulation on Warne’s part and a lack of choice/independent thought by those who do back him to blind faith extremes.

You and others don’t like Warne’s football, don’t think he’s right long term for the club for a number of reasons well articulated mostly by yourself and others with a few more extreme and less rational posters, and some think he is right for the club and express their views. It’s all opinions, I say this as someone who for the most part I respect their posts and views even if I don’t always share them, try not to get so wound up by it. 
If he’s not the man long term he’ll be found out and that’ll be that. For now he’s what we’ve got and it doesn’t appear to be changing, so discuss what’s pants and what could be better but don’t get dragged down by it as it doesn’t appear to be changing at the moment 

Appreciate your candour and I don't entirely disagree, I do think recently there has been an increase in posts taking an extreme view against people with doubts/complaints though, which is what I'm reacting against and may give the impression my own views have becoem less balanced. I do feel more agitated by other posters than a few weeks ago, but it's probably based on a few (awful) individuals being problematic than the general tone of posts.

I also feel there are times where you have taken a side, in spite of your desire not to, in favour of one side of the argument and may have been swayed a little bit toward those with a more dismissive POV and have - intentionally or not - started to not give full weight to some of the horrible stuff aimed towards those not fully behind Warne.

I think the signing of Adams was excellent but I won't ignore that that he wouldn't have been needed if the Fornah hadn't proves a poor signing (so far) - that opinion seems to have set a couple of folk off, as have my views on McGoldrick, but these are specific posts and by the by, not really meant for discussiuon here.

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

For you, Warne is limited and won’t ever change.

Well that's wrong. I've never I want him sacked or that I'm not open to the idea of him improving.

I've seen and noted signs of progress, some of them he's regressesd on, some not. I've given out credit where I feel it's appropriate. What I do believe (based on what I've seen) is that said progress and the understanding of how it's happened seem to have taken a rather long amount of time come to fruition, I think he's learning but he's a slow learner.

My biggest mistake has been calling out posters for their attitudes toward others, which people have taken to mean I'm part of some Warne hating faction. I don't like people being bullied and rounded on for how they feel aout a football manager and I find many of the comments on here to come across as bullying and often behind a fgacade of humourous gfs. The reality is that I find him a frustrating and contradictory figure, and i'm not sold on the idea that he's as open and honest as he seems. The divisive b******* on this forum really tires me out, and the labelling always seem t cto come from one direction.

I'm sorry but If you don't know what hype I'm referencing I'm not sure you've been paying attention. He's bigged up at every opportunity. If he hadn't been bigged up to a certain degree I'd have a far more favorable opinion of him. I hold him to the standard he's been allocated by those talking of his stature.

The talk of Ferrari showrooms and comparisons to Rotherham's budget just does nothing for me. We are in the here and now, and he has many advantages over most managers at this level either by experience or budget.

2 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

I always go to work on a Monday with a sore throat after supporting the Rams.

I never said your not a proper supporter if you don't sing. I do feel you don't have a right to complain about singing if you don't join in yourself though.

Anyway, up the Rams. lets cheer them om to promotion.

Not a complaint, just an observation! I appreciate the efforts of all who sing but if we're claiming 'the south stand were on it all game' then it would have been a lot more noticeable?

I feel that's where this forum really struggles tbh, everything is seen as a criticism even when it's not.

3 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Did you not understand what this thread was about was it to complicated for you to understand it was a feel good thread. 

Have you posted anything 'feelgood' then?

I've contributed a rather lovely song to the thread, you've contributed... an insult.

Way to go.