Question for Ramblur - what does this all mean

[davenportram]

I was snooping on forest new owners on company check and did a search for general sports derby and found some things out

[url=http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06442121]http://companycheck....ompany/06442121

• Cash in bank......2008 £8m...........2009 £3.2m.............2010 £1.1m................2011 £1.75m
  
• Net worth............2008 £18m..........2009 £16.9m...........2010 £23m.................2011 £17m
  
• total Liabilities.....2008 £42.7m.......2009 £29.9m.......... 2010 £21.1m..............2011 £27.5m
  
• Total assets....... 2008 £16.8m.......2009 £6.5m............. 2010 £3.9m...............2011 £5m
  

the figures on liabilities seem a lot higher to the debt figures given in the media, just wondering why.

Also why would the assets drop so suddenly £10m in 1 year

Edit

heres a link to the figures given for the Derby county Football Club Ltd http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00049139 which shows similar figures to the above for 2008 onwards and has figures for 2006-2008 too.

heres a link to information the website gives for Gellaw 101 http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05710942 showing net worth of almost £15m and liabilities of £8,997,000 and assets of £8,996,000

[Stedcfc]

I was snooping on forest new owners on company check and did a search for general sports derby and found some things out

[url=http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06442121]http://companycheck....ompany/06442121

• Cash in bank......2008 £8m...........2009 £3.2m.............2010 £1.1m................2011 £1.75m
  
• Net worth............2008 £18m..........2009 £16.9m...........2010 £23m.................2011 £17m
  
• total Liabilities.....2008 £42.7m.......2009 £29.9m.......... 2010 £21.1m..............2011 £27.5m
  
• Total assets....... 2008 £16.8m.......2009 £6.5m............. 2010 £3.9m...............2011 £5m
  

the figures on liabilities seem a lot higher to the debt figures given in the media, just wondering why.

Also why would the assets drop so suddenly £10m in 1 year

I'm an accountant (boring I know). Haven't had a look at the accounts but I know most football teams class footballers under assets. They're included at cost and written down over their contract. Assets would of fallen massively due to writing value of the players bought for a considerable amount in the prem. The likes of Earnshaw, Davis etc.

My guess on debt is that the liabilities in the accounts will include a number of things such as the rolling season ticket facility that the board will not consider debt, but must be classified as a liability in the accounts.

[Diag Ram]

What are the liabilities made up of? That's a bit of a jump from 2010-11, I wouldn't have thought the season ticket income deferral would account for that, especially since prices didn't go up. Has there been an increase in Director's Loans?

[davenportram]

I'm an accountant (boring I know). Haven't had a look at the accounts but I know most football teams class footballers under assets. They're included at cost and written down over their contract. Assets would of fallen massively due to writing value of the players bought for a considerable amount in the prem. The likes of Earnshaw, Davis etc.

My guess on debt is that the liabilities in the accounts will include a number of things such as the rolling season ticket facility that the board will not consider debt, but must be classified as a liability in the accounts.

Now you mention the debt they did say 3rd party debt was £19m including the season ticket revolving loan when the accounts were published and with the "loan" from owners would push it up to the figure given I think.

[Stedcfc]

What are the liabilities made up of? That's a bit of a jump from 2010-11, I wouldn't have thought the season ticket income deferral would account for that, especially since prices didn't go up. Has there been an increase in Director's Loans?

The loss this year was covered by an "interest free loan" instead of a cash injection. Which was approx 7m.

[davenportram]

Thanks for the input.

[jeffstelling]

What are the liabilities made up of? That's a bit of a jump from 2010-11, I wouldn't have thought the season ticket income deferral would account for that, especially since prices didn't go up. Has there been an increase in Director's Loans?

these are the liabilities broken down in the clubs accounts

Current Liabilities 2011 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003 Trade Creditors -1,615 -1,778 -2,615 -1,695 -1,455 -1,199 -1,752 -1,460 -957 -1,925 Short Term Loans & Overdrafts -11,741 -4,775 -6,960 -14,152 -11,870 -3,935 -29,341 -19,259 -55,551 -48,445 Bank Overdrafts -17 -17 -6,949 -14,149 -11,868 -3,760 -15,417 -5,420 -35,030 -27,689 Group Loans (short t.) 0 0 0 0 0 0 -13,830 -13,831 -20,136 -20,336 Director Loans (short t.) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -55 -55 Hire Purch. & Leas. (short t.) -2 -12 -11 -3 -2 -175 -94 -8 -330 -365 Hire Purchase (short t.) Leasing (short t.) Other Short Term Loans -11,722 -4,746 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total Other Current Liabilities -12,954 -13,288 -20,333 -26,125 -21,589 -10,477 -8,399 -7,039 -10,558 -8,653 Corporation Tax 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Dividends 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Accruals & Def. Inc. (short t.) -7,501 -7,458 -11,958 -11,230 -10,623 -5,291 -5,995 -5,162 -5,502 -3,566 Social Securities & V.A.T. -1,443 -1,236 -2,277 -3,679 -1,924 -991 -1,714 -1,037 -3,686 -1,839 Other Current Liabilities -4,010 -4,594 -6,098 -11,216 -9,042 -4,195 -690 -840 -1,370 -3,248 Current Liabilities -26,310 -19,841 -29,908 -41,972 -34,914 -15,611 -39,492 -27,758 -67,066 -59,023

Long Term Liabilities Long Term Debt -15,513 -15,532 -15,119 -15,124 -22,033 -47,511 -30,381 -886 -4,403 Group Loans (long t.) 0 0 0 0 -6,896 -29,363 0 0 0 Director Loans (long t.) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Hire Purch. & Leas. (long t.) -6 -8 -10 0 -3 -5 -180 -652 0 Hire Purchase (long t.) Leasing (long t.) Preference Shares -434 -434 Other Long Term Loans -15,073 -15,090 -15,109 -15,124 -15,134 -18,143 -30,201 -234 -4,403 Total Other Long Term Liab. -2,074 -3,236 -4,844 -2,740 -2,843 -2,947 -2,617 -36,042 -2,824 Accruals & Def. Inc. (long t.) -2,018 -3,005 -4,004 -2,306 -2,409 -2,513 -2,617 0 -2,824 Other Long Term Liab. -56 -231 -840 -434 -434 -434 0 -36,042 0 Provisions for Other Liab. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Deferred Tax Other Provisions Pension Liabilities Balance sheet Minorities Long Term Liabilities -17,587 -18,768 -19,963 -17,864 -24,876 -50,458 -32,998 -36,042 -3,710 -4,403

[jeffstelling]

alright, i'm new on here, that was meant to be a table but its not worked

[davenportram]

alright, i'm new on here, that was meant to be a table but its not worked

Tables are hard to do, that's why I put full stops in my original post.

[jeffstelling]

if you read the words in there amongst the numbers, you can still see how the liabilities are broken down, for who ever it was who wanted to know

[Boycie]

Erm... No carry on.

[curb]

Boycie, why is your avatar an av..... Oh yes, very good. Carry on.

[Hucknall Ram]

Oh and Ramblur, you must explain it in a way that even I understand 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

[GboroRam]

...

It means YANKS OUT! CLOUGH OUT! TITS OUT!

[ramblur]

Oh and Ramblur, you must explain it in a way that even I understand 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Feck it,I was just about to go on hols when I saw all these accountants turning up like the proverbial bus! To try and get it into layman's terms,my mind goes back to a conversation I had with Martyn yonks ago,during which it became clear that he thought the total creditors also meant the total debt.I can understand the logic-you owe a creditor money,so you're in debt to that creditor (deferred income however means 'debt' to a future financial year-advance season ticket income belongs to the following year).

However,the debt mentioned in the accounts refers to loans,in other words pure financial transactions.You might owe an electricity company an amount at the year end,but they haven't loaned you the money-it just represents electicity usage not yet paid for.Also,any amounts owed to other clubs in respect of transfers doesn't constitute debt-if we'd taken out a loan to pay for them it would have been a different matter (the lender would then be a creditor).

In case something's picked up on by others,preference shares are treated as debt.We have some of these,which explains why the long term debt isn't a round £15m.

Feeling a bit groggy,so I haven't actually read Davenport's links,but I've a sneaking feeling that the recategorisation of the revolving loan out of deferred income and into debt may be misleading some (c£3m),which led to accounts being restated (can't remember which year).

In conclusion,pure debt forms part of the overall liabilities,but not the whole.

[Diag Ram]

OK, I can't read that, but it looks like what you're saying stacks up, that it's a jump in the short term loans due to a cash injection that accounts for a bulk of the jump. Has that come from a Holding company?

[ramblur]

OK, I can't read that, but it looks like what you're saying stacks up, that it's a jump in the short term loans due to a cash injection that accounts for a bulk of the jump. Has that come from a Holding company?

I'm working a bit blind here because I feel ghastly and really don't want to be looking at a stack of figures,so I'm purely guessing that we're talking about a sudden hop in debt.The revolving loan was a Co-op Bank loan secured against future S/T income.It was originally perched in deferred income (a practice I've never liked-Bradford also did this),so debt was understated by £3m originally.Restating of accounts took this out of deferred income and put it into debt,so (I think) that the answer to your question is that it was a previous cash 'injection' by the Bank (effectively) that was redesignated.

If that's not the answer,then I'll (reluctantly,because I don't think it's a big deal) look at Davenport's figures when I feel better.

[ramblur]

An investor loan of £6.8m also boosted the 10/11 figure,which I see has been mentioned.

[ramblur]

I was snooping on forest new owners on company check and did a search for general sports derby and found some things out

[url=http://companycheck.co.uk/company/06442121]http://companycheck....ompany/06442121

• Cash in bank......2008 £8m...........2009 £3.2m.............2010 £1.1m................2011 £1.75m
  
• Net worth............2008 £18m..........2009 £16.9m...........2010 £23m.................2011 £17m
  
• total Liabilities.....2008 £42.7m.......2009 £29.9m.......... 2010 £21.1m..............2011 £27.5m
  
• Total assets....... 2008 £16.8m.......2009 £6.5m............. 2010 £3.9m...............2011 £5m
  

the figures on liabilities seem a lot higher to the debt figures given in the media, just wondering why.

Also why would the assets drop so suddenly £10m in 1 year

Edit

heres a link to the figures given for the Derby county Football Club Ltd [url=http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00049139]http://companycheck....ompany/00049139 which shows similar figures to the above for 2008 onwards and has figures for 2006-2008 too.

heres a link to information the website gives for Gellaw 101 [url=http://companycheck.co.uk/company/05710942]http://companycheck....ompany/05710942 showing net worth of almost £15m and liabilities of £8,997,000 and assets of £8,996,000

Had a breather and looked at your first link.The asset figures you're looking at are current assets,as opposed to total assets (which include fixed assets).Current assets would predominantly be cash in hand and debtors (including amounts owed to us by other clubs).

As mentioned earlier,debt only forms part of liabilities.Also liabilities don't automatically represent amounts owed to third parties,as deferred income represents income owed to future years.You can't even determine a figure for this,as deferred income is lumped together with accruals in a global figure.

A quick glance at 07/08 shows total deferred income/accruals at c£13.5m