PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 It isn't racist, it is using the information that I have available to me. I have been looking at graffiti that is daubed on walls around Poland that has been there for years and not removed. I have an auntie who is Polish and doesn't talk about her country as she moved when she was young and can't really remember it. We had (sadly no longer with us) a close family friend who was a Polish Jew and came to the UK and refused to go back because of the persecution. As I say, I am only using the information I have to hand- The most up to date information is all through the media and I didn't want to use it as it constantly deemed biased. I cannot believe that I am deemed racist for recognising racist problems in another country by using media, scientific and governmental reports! If it is all roses and kittens then I apologise but to call someone racist for forming an opinion based on reliable and differing sources then you need to pull your head out. We can't all have the advantage of seeing things first hand. I am sorry to have trusted scientific, and governmental papers- I wonder what else is incorrect that we hold to be true? Shilts - I don't want to be arguing with you, you're not someone I disagree with everyday. Your opening post wasn't exaclty pulling any punches and didnt leave much ground for discussion. "Poland has a large nazi contingent and a real problem with anit scemitism.. I bolded some bits - I suggest a lot has changed since your Polish Auntie left home - likely more than 25 years ago? I suggest a lot more has changed since your sadly departed friend was persecuted. That was likely nearly 70 years ago? I could tell stories of my childhood in the UK growing up to highlight how until a few years ago racism was a real problem in England. Should I talk about what Willie Whitelaw wanted to do to my "step" family just over 30 years ago? Poland needs time to fix it's own issues, it's only recently certain areas of Poland have been exposed to people with different skin colours. it wil just take time for the idiots to realise their outdated views have no place, bloody hell though even your own 69 page report pours water on the allegation that they are doing nothing about it. 99% of Poles would rightly be outraged at racism. 99.5% would be just as rightly outraged at anti scemitism. The majority of the country are fine decent upstanding people. Just the same as In England. I am not saying there is no racism in Poland, I'm not even saying there are no hooligans in Poland. There is isloated racism and their are isolated hooligan attacks. I've lived here for 15 years so I do see things first hand - it's not as bad as is being portrayed and just what would be enough for me to prove that people with different skin colour need not be fearing for their lives as soon as they touch down in Frederyk Chopin?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 People need to lay off shilts. At the end of the day we can only form opinions on the evidence we have seen, Shilts has formed his on government reports, personal testimony of family members and other sources. That to me is a good way to form an opinion, he sounds open to persuasion instead of being steadfast to his position as well. PBW I think you owe shilts a sincere apology because what you stated was deeply offensive, you can't go spouting off that someone is racist because they have a different view of race relations in a country than you do. Give over Young Ram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackNwhites Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Everybody has a opinion and thats what forums are for , but branding Poland and Ukraine racists like the TV shows in England have done is not right , you cant put everyone under the same light, kind of ironic that the country that is making the most fuss about racism in Poland and Ukraine is the country that has Racisim scandels in there own football teams and England also has a racist national political movement ,, erm pot and kettle come to mind I don't think they did that, they just highlighted a problem. Nobody is branding whole nations as racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Give over Young Ram. No, I think you do owe him an apology. To label someone a racist is serious, and you in my opinion did it frivolously. He deserves an apology from you because of your offensive remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 No, I think you do owe him an apology. To label someone a racist is serious, and you in my opinion did it frivolously. He deserves an apology from you because of your offensive remarks. Give over young ram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.shilton Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Give over Young Ram. Well, it was deeply offensive. You have deeply offended me but you don't seem to care. You challenged me on my views and I showed where they came from and have apologised. I have been branded racist on more than one occasion on this thread and I have not seen any form of apology whatsoever. Thank you Young Ram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Give over young ram. So instead of trying to defend yourself you give an empty retort which you have already used. Like I have said please apologise for your offensive remarks which were obviously made because you felt angry at the statement made by shilts. He based his opinion on government reports etc and to call him a racist was uncalled for, inaccurate and beneath civilized debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramexpat Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I don't think they did that, they just highlighted a problem. Nobody is branding whole nations as racist. as i mentioned in a previous post, i have not seen the programme but from reading peoples facebook status and listening to peoples opinions after watching the programs thats the feedback im getting, people saying that how dare Poland get the Euros because of the racism need to get out and see the world more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I think the best way to deal with it is not to reward a prestigious international sporting event to a pair of countries that have blatant racist and violence problems specifically around sport. Nice one UEFA And there are large contingents of Nazis in Poland, fans who cheer for the Germans and even players that have switched allegiances. "Jew" is even used an insult in these countries. Unbelievable, makes you proud to be European and forward thinking doesn't it? You're both clearly bright young lads. Work out what part of the bits I bolded IS NOT racist towards Poland and the Polish nation and come back to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackNwhites Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 as i mentioned in a previous post, i have not seen the programme but from reading peoples facebook status and listening to peoples opinions after watching the programs thats the feedback im getting, people saying that how dare Poland get the Euros because of the racism need to get out and see the world more Might be over exaggerated, but because the video footage seen is directly related to football this particular subject comes keen. If there were to be problems, and the police just stood by and watched whilst the stewards struggled to hold them back, I doubt people would feel safe. I think you said something similar yesterday? It's not just about hooliganism itself, but about the lack of empathy shown by the authorities. To be fair towards Poland though, it was Ukraine that shocked people most. I'm not saying Polish football came off lightly, just saying that Ukrainian football came across really badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 So instead of trying to defend yourself you give an empty retort which you have already used. Like I have said please apologise for your offensive remarks which were obviously made because you felt angry at the statement made by shilts. He based his opinion on government reports etc and to call him a racist was uncalled for, inaccurate and beneath civilized debate. I'm not defending it cos there's nowt to defend. I didnt call him a racist I said what he wrote was racist. You're a cheeky little charlie young ram. It's not for you to tell me to apologise or not - i have my own moral compass thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 You're both clearly bright young lads. Work out what part of the bits I bolded IS NOT racist towards Poland and the Polish nation and come back to me. That isn't racist, what he stated wasn't based on race but on the supposed political state of two countries, Now we can argue if it was xenophobic or not but that isn't racism and to me it isn't xenophobic either. So instead of responding you state it again, this is part of the problem with discussions in many european countries on race relations, as soon as someone says anything not of the mainstream they are branded racist. I am not talking about Nick Griffin but about normal people. What Shilts said was based on research, was commenting about the state of the countries while not labelling everyone in Poland or any race, and was denouncing anti semitism and racism. Of course that makes it racist.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramexpat Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Might be over exaggerated, but because the video footage seen is directly related to football this particular subject comes keen. If there were to be problems, and the police just stood by and watched whilst the stewards struggled to hold them back, I doubt people would feel safe. I think you said something similar yesterday? It's not just about hooliganism itself, but about the lack of empathy shown by the authorities. Hooligans and Racist are 2 seperate bunch of idiots , the only problem i see happening here in Poland is not the racism but as you said the control by the authorities , if they cant organise a ticket session how they going to cope with the Euro's itself ,, oh and Mario Balotelli p!sses me off aswell ,, "if some one throws a banana i'll walk off" ,, you tell a kid not to touch something hot and what happens , he's just provoking all the idiots to cause trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm not defending it cos there's nowt to defend. I didnt call him a racist I said what he wrote was racist. You're a cheeky little charlie young ram. It's not for you to tell me to apologise or not - i have my own moral compass thanks. Where did I tell you to do anything? I asked you to there is a big difference, and I stated that because I believe what you wrote was a snide insinuation and beneath civilized debate. I do believe everyone has a moral compass they can call their own, however I still believe what you wrote was deeply offensive and plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Well, it was deeply offensive. You have deeply offended me but you don't seem to care. You challenged me on my views and I showed where they came from and have apologised. I have been branded racist on more than one occasion on this thread and I have not seen any form of apology whatsoever. Thank you Young Ram That's the worst apology I've ever seen in my life. If it's all roses and flowers I apologise. How about apologising for the words you used. Stop the Hate, stop the stero-typing and stop the ******** - then I'll stop telling you you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.shilton Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 You're both clearly bright young lads. Work out what part of the bits I bolded IS NOT racist towards Poland and the Polish nation and come back to me. I have just watched a BBC tv program which stated all of the above- I have seen Polish/ Ukranian fans giving the Nazi salute. If you really believe me to be racist for using my eyes and ears then good luck with that. I think that your beef should be with the media, scientists etc that publish this information. Not with the consumers who find information from reliable sources and form an opinion. If a whole stand of fans gave the Nazi salute, waved a huge swastika flag and had scarves and shirts bearing the Celtic cross in Britain or openly wore anti-semetic T shirts and brandished flags there would be no outcry? At no point have I criticised the police or lawmakers for failing to act BTW As I say, I am not a racist- merely responding to what I have seen and read. I am still keeping the majority of the media out of this as I believe that they are subject to sensationalising things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramexpat Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 can someone send me a link to this programe if possible , cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBW Ram Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Where did I tell you to do anything? I asked you to there is a big difference, and I stated that because I believe what you wrote was a snide insinuation and beneath civilized debate. I do believe everyone has a moral compass they can call their own, however I still believe what you wrote was deeply offensive and plain wrong. On a post accusing a nation of wide spread naziism and anti scemitism my word telling somene that those four llines are racist causes you so much offence. Honeslty I'd be worried if we ever shared the same views on anything young ram, Thankfully I dont need to value your morals, I value mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 On a post accusing a nation of wide spread naziism and anti scemitism my word telling somene that those four llines are racist causes you so much offence. Honeslty I'd be worried if we ever shared the same views on anything young ram, Thankfully I dont need to value your morals, I value mine. So instead of answering the questions you go on to insult me, that is a sign of being backed into a corner and you lashing out again. Of course you have your own ethics as do I and I didn't ask you to share mine, all I asked was for you to apologize for a snide insinuation as I think that is the decent and proper thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackNwhites Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Hooligans and Racist are 2 seperate bunch of idiots , the only problem i see happening here in Poland is not the racism but as you said the control by the authorities , if they cant organise a ticket session how they going to cope with the Euro's itself ,, oh and Mario Balotelli p!sses me off aswell ,, "if some one throws a banana i'll walk off" ,, you tell a kid not to touch something hot and what happens , he's just provoking all the idiots to cause trouble Mario Balotelli is Italian, again, I'm not tagging a whole nation as fascist but Italy has it's problems in that area aswell, pretty sure he's been subject to a lot of abuse in his time. I remember him coming on for Inter Milan in the champions league to a bit of discontent in the crowds. He got the ball, charged forwards and booted the ball into the crowd. There were jeers and chanting that sounded a lot like monkey sounds as he raised his arms in the air and puffed his chest out. I'm not saying he should say what he's said, but I can understand why he did. If I was him I wouldn't care anyway, I'd keep my mouth shut, as you say, and get on with my football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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