Albert Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Excellent post, have a like. Perfectly summed up what I have been trying to say. I daresay your opinion will be written off though and you will not understand the rules I already responded hours ago. Again, if that is a persuasive argument, you don't understand the rules or the point of them. They're not to balance the odds if a team does do things like that, it's to dissuade them from ever doing it, and punishing them appropriately for doing so. Speaking of the numbers game they were attempting though, the rate of scoring penalties is about 70-85%, depending on context, but what they don't have is the scoring rate of one on ones without pressure. Not that it matters greatly to this discussion, but the lack of a statistic isn't something to base an argument on. A good striker will score about 1 in 3 from all chances, many one on one chances are considerably better than a penalty. Should vicious two footed tackles only be a red if the player they tackled comes off injured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Diving - Retrospectively ban a player if a four man panel (made up on referee's, ex players and maybe a manager) all agree it was a dive.Referee Abuse - If referee's had the bottle to give a player for a yellow for foul and abusive language, that would stop as well.I referee basketball - the minute any player uses a swear word at me or to describe a decision I make, they get a technical foul. This is the same as a yellow pretty much. Unsurprisingly, like rugby, I hardly ever give Technical's.It's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 About 70-85% Are you sure you are not just guessing at figures here? And a good striker scores about 1 in 3 one on ones? Where did you get the figures for that from?If you are giving someone a 70-85% chance of scoring when it would have been 33% then surely they have gained an advantage without the need for a red card also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 About 70-85% Are you sure you are not just guessing at figures here? And a good striker scores about 1 in 3 one on ones? Where did you get the figures for that from?If you are giving someone a 70-85% chance of scoring when it would have been 33% then surely they have gained an advantage without the need for a red card also?Penalty shootouts see penalties scored around the 70% mark, and general penalties in the Premier League are scored around 80-85% of the time. A good striker (really should have said very good striker) scores around 1 in 3 from all chances, as in, they score around one in three from the total shots they take. You can check that by just looking up any list of conversion rates for players in top leagues. A good Premier League striker scores about 20-25% of their chances, a very good player can get to the 30-35% chance. So, you've basically misread that entirely there. Again, you also seem to misunderstand the difference between evening the odds, and punishment and deterrent for what is seen as serious foul play. The foul itself is the penalty, the card is for the serious foul play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 A player is allowed to hold his ground. They are not allowed to knock another player out of their's. Suspensions are decided after matches based on a number of factors. To my knowledge the Premier League as a general rule does a one day suspension for professional fouls, which is ultimately fair, particularly if it's one late in the game. For reds for vicious tackles and such it's generally 3+ games if I recall. I think that if it would only be a yellow if it wasn't denying a goal scoring opportunity then it doesn't merit a ban for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I think that if it would only be a yellow if it wasn't denying a goal scoring opportunity then it doesn't merit a ban for me.They wouldn't give a ban for it if it were just a yellow. What I meant is that reds for professional fouls are generally just a one game ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 They wouldn't give a ban for it if it were just a yellow. What I meant is that reds for professional fouls are generally just a one game ban. red cards are given for preventing a GS opportunity. Sometimes that can be as little as a mistimed challenge in which case surely the red card and penalty suffice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 red cards are given for preventing a GS opportunity. Sometimes that can be as little as a mistimed challenge in which case surely the red card and penalty suffice? Which is a type of professional foul (which isn't a term used used in the Laws of the Game themselves, but rather used as a blanket term to refer to all fouls which are deemed to have been for the purpose of stopping play). That's were part of the current debate about it is. It's up to the leagues themselves to decide the punishment in these situations, but to my knowledge most tend to give an automatic one match ban for all red cards and go from there. The nature of a suspension, if any, is up to the league, not the laws of the game, which only handles on field matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Diving - Retrospectively ban a player if a four man panel (made up on referee's, ex players and maybe a manager) all agree it was a dive.Referee Abuse - If referee's had the bottle to give a player for a yellow for foul and abusive language, that would stop as well.I referee basketball - the minute any player uses a swear word at me or to describe a decision I make, they get a technical foul. This is the same as a yellow pretty much. Unsurprisingly, like rugby, I hardly ever give Technical's.It's not rocket science.Mic them up.... That's hardly rocket science... Watch to the end... Interesting... Really should mic refs up... http://youtu.be/FnQ16KFDoA4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Mic them up.... That's hardly rocket science...Watch to the end... Interesting... Really should mic refs up... http://youtu.be/FnQ16KFDoA4Should I wait until I'm out the office? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kernow Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I agree with Albert on the whole last man/penalty/red card debate. If a player has deliberately stopped a blatant goalscoring opportunity, it should be a red card. The only way to fairly even things out would be to give the goal without it even going in. Rugby do a few of the suggestions mentioned. Sin bin for fouls not deemed serious enough for a red. Penalty tries for things like purposely knocking the ball on to prevent a try.It just has to be a penalty and red card. In the World Cup 2010 Ghana were going to go through until Suarez's hand got in the way intentionally. He was sent off, Ghana got the penalty and still they were robbed as they missed the penalty and lost in penalties where it doesn't matter if you have numerical advantage.Most cases of red cards for last man challenges are impossible to tell if there would have been a goal. Batth's push on Bent at 0-0 away to Wolves. No card at all yet a foul for last man? Garry O'Neil's deliberate taking one for the team, which he admitted, in the PO final. Who knows what would have happened if Russell continued into the box to take a shot on goal. Coloccini's blatant push on Fletcher on Sunday to rule out any possibility of getting to the ball. You have to give the benefit of doubt to the attacking side. If a player has deliberately stopped a team from getting a clear shot on goal, through a foul, handball, whatever, should be a red card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Newcastle's appeal against Coloccini's red card was successful. Newcastle have also been charged with failing to control their players in relation to the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Newcastle's appeal against Coloccini's red card was successful. Newcastle have also been charged with failing to control their players in relation to the decision. So is that saying that the decision was wrong altogether or that it was not worthy of a red card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 So is that saying that the decision was wrong altogether or that it was not worthy of a red card?From what I can tell they've ruled that they didn't think it was a clear enough goal scoring opportunity for it to be red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 From what I can tell they've ruled that they didn't think it was a clear enough goal scoring opportunity for it to be red. Wow, it appears I am not the only one who doesn't fully understand the point of this rule!What scale do they use for deciding how 'clear enough' the goal scoring opportunity is?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Wow, it appears I am not the only one who doesn't fully understand the point of this rule!What scale do they use for deciding how 'clear enough' the goal scoring opportunity is?!Process differs from league to league. As I said on the day, it was always a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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