PrivateDerby Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Davenport (and others) I know what you mean but you can't tell me that when you and LR are sat on the sofa with a brew, watching 8 out of 10 cats you two don't laugh at the MUCH more offensive, racist, homophobic, classist, sexist, gingerist, ageist, religious jokes? What's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrivateDerby Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 This country's f*cked, can you get RD in North Korea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 The difference is that "mock" racist chants are/were aimed at specific people of different races. And the recipients of those chants found them deeply offensive. "Mock" homosexual chants at Brighton are not aimed at homosexuals. They are aimed at a crowd of mostly heterosexual people, most of whom take utterly no offence to them & find them broadly amusing. This is backed up by the Brighton fans who have posted on this thread & also a Brighton fan I work with who also does not regard the chants as a problem. Its like people accusing us of shagging sheep because we have a Ram on our badge - none of us practise bestiality, why would we be offended? Just to clarify, I DO have a massive problem with genuine gay-hate speech or prejudice aimed at specific members of the gay community. In a civilised society, there is no place for it. But it's not the heterosexual fans taking offense that matters. It's the homosexual fans and non fans that fund it offensive which makes it wrong. I'm sure the predominantly white football crowds didn't take offense at the mock racist chants, but they are unacceptable because of those fans that do. It can't be wrong to chant things about a section of society based on race bit okay to chant things about a section of society based on sexuality, its a perfect example of hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Davenport (and others) I know what you mean but you can't tell me that when you and LR are sat on the sofa with a brew, watching 8 out of 10 cats you two don't laugh at the MUCH more offensive, racist, homophobic, classist, sexist, gingerist, ageist, religious jokes? What's the difference? I don't watch eight out of ten cats. Perhaps I find different things entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Davenport (and others) I know what you mean but you can't tell me that when you and LR are sat on the sofa with a brew, watching 8 out of 10 cats you two don't laugh at the MUCH more offensive, racist, homophobic, classist, sexist, gingerist, ageist, religious jokes? What's the difference? Don't watch it cos I personally don't find it funny. Believe it or not, not everybody does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 But it's not the heterosexual fans taking offense that matters. It's the homosexual fans and non fans that fund it offensive which makes it wrong. I'm sure the predominantly white football crowds didn't take offense at the mock racist chants, but they are unacceptable because of those fans that do. It can't be wrong to chant things about a section of society based on race bit okay to chant things about a section of society based on sexuality, its a perfect example of hypocrisy. I do see your point. The concerns I raised in my first post was about where the line is drawn. Again to re-iterate, grossly offensive chants aimed at a homosexual person will always be offensive & wrong. However, I instinctively feel (rightly or wrongly) that a generic joke or mock chant is different when not aimed at someone who is homosexual. The reality is we will all be offended by certain things. Do we ban literally everything that is potentially offensive to a sample cross-section of the population? How do we determine when a particular phrase or song is offensive? Do you not find it worrying & also hypocritical that the authorities seem to apply different levels of tolerance for football fans as opposed to certain religious groups? Where do you stand on the humour of Jimmy Carr/Frankie Boyle etc? Should their routines be vetted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't watch either of them, if I see em on my telly they get switched off. I wouldn't watch them then moan about it though. I know that a lot do watch but they're not my kind of comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 And in my view the police should deal with everybody - the fans, religioys groups - anyone who is found to be breaking rules and laws the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I do see your point. The concerns I raised in my first post was about where the line is drawn. Again to re-iterate, grossly offensive chants aimed at a homosexual person will always be offensive & wrong. However, I instinctively feel (rightly or wrongly) that a generic joke or mock chant is different when not aimed at someone who is homosexual. The reality is we will all be offended by certain things. Do we ban literally everything that is potentially offensive to a sample cross-section of the population? How do we determine when a particular phrase or song is offensive? Do you not find it worrying & also hypocritical that the authorities seem to apply different levels of tolerance for football fans as opposed to certain religious groups? Where do you stand on the humour of Jimmy Carr/Frankie Boyle etc? Should their routines be vetted? I don't like Frankie Boyle, and Clarkson I find offensive at times when he makes unnecessary analogies which bring race, nationality etc into it. I like his observational comments funny sometimes. On your point about the chants being aimed at homosexual or not - if I as a white person hears a comment that I feel is racist (although not directed at me) I am able to complain about and it becomes a racist incident. Even if the person it was aimed at wasn't offended. Comments don't have to be offensive to the person they were made to for complaints to be made. Now some may think this is excessive and shouldn't be applied to anything other than racism, but again I'll say 10-15 years ago racism was viewed in much the same way homophobia is being viewed now. Society changes through time and opinion on things is shaped by society. 50 years ago smoking was acceptable it is now not - advertising tobacco in sporting events is now banned Tobacco went and alcohol took over - in some countries Alcohol advertising is now banned Gambling sponsorship is now a big thing - in Australia they had a big national problem and I believe online gambling is not allowed (likewise in America) and advertising is minimal. Just an example that as society views on things change something else emerges and then society adopts its view on similar things to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't watch either of them, if I see em on my telly they get switched off. I wouldn't watch them then moan about it though. I know that a lot do watch but they're not my kind of comedy. That's fair enough. My point is though do you think their routines should be vetted to filter out jokes that may be offensive to certain sections of society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I love Frankie Boyle and Jezza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I think we all agree that if you are giving abuse to a particular Brighton fan walking to the ground then it's wrong. "Hope you die of AIDS" to some chap on his way to watch football isn't the same as "town full of benders" being sung by grown men at other grown men in a football situation. Who do these chants offend? And why? Nobody has answered yet and I'm curious. People chant race related songs at football. Still happens. Derby do it. Just got to apply common sense to everything. Is "you're just a small town in Asia" or "You used to be English, you're not anymore" racist? Is it the same as "you're just a town full of slaves" or "town full of terrorists"? I'm pretty sure the "you fat b*stard" chant at a particular individual or "where's your father referee" is more ruthless. There's unwritten rules amongst the majority of football fans. Probably dictated by the current state of society. Certain behaviour just wouldn't happen by a large majority. You've seen Brighton fans come on here. You've heard the chants Derby fans sing. Is it offensive? Really? What can you say? What determines banter between fans? People try to think for other people all the time. And people let themselves be thought for. They bang on about doing the right thing. Everyone is so nice and kind to each other. Football fans are the least of your worries. Blokes singing at each other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Well I for one will think twice before singing black and white army at the next game, I live opposite a Chinese take away, if they hear me my cats would be the next number 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 That's fair enough. My point is though do you think their routines should be vetted to filter out jokes that may be offensive to certain sections of society?I think broadcasters have a responsibility to see if things should be changed in case it offends. Take Frankie Boyle, wasn't it a couple of years ago he made what he saw as 'comedy' comments on Downs Syndrome? And didn't he also make comments on Katie Prices' son Harvey's learning disabilities? Why? These things aren't even remotely funny, they're just sick, so are the people who laugh. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I don't like Frankie Boyle, and Clarkson I find offensive at times when he makes unnecessary analogies which bring race, nationality etc into it. I like his observational comments funny sometimes. On your point about the chants being aimed at homosexual or not - if I as a white person hears a comment that I feel is racist (although not directed at me) I am able to complain about and it becomes a racist incident. Even if the person it was aimed at wasn't offended. Comments don't have to be offensive to the person they were made to for complaints to be made. Now some may think this is excessive and shouldn't be applied to anything other than racism, but again I'll say 10-15 years ago racism was viewed in much the same way homophobia is being viewed now. Society changes through time and opinion on things is shaped by society. 50 years ago smoking was acceptable it is now not - advertising tobacco in sporting events is now banned Tobacco went and alcohol took over - in some countries Alcohol advertising is now banned Gambling sponsorship is now a big thing - in Australia they had a big national problem and I believe online gambling is not allowed (likewise in America) and advertising is minimal. Just an example that as society views on things change something else emerges and then society adopts its view on similar things to it. Again I wouldn't necessarily disagree with a lot of that. Society naturally evolves so that views which were once considered mainstream no longer are 30/40 years later. And as you rightly say that you don't have to be a member of an ethnic minority to be offended by racism directed at an ethnic minority. The problem I have is that I don't believe a majority of society would find the kind of "mock" homosexual songs sang at Brighton to be offensive. On that basis, I feel very uncomfortable with authorities making judgement calls on what is considered offensive or not. In time, it may well be that we would look back at those types of songs & cringe but that is something that I feel the majority of society needs to agree on. I don't think we're at that stage yet. The key point is that I don't actually believe punishing people for singing songs of that nature will help stamp out anti-gay prejudice. In fact, it will do the opposite - it will cause resentment. A parallel I see is the worrying trend of increasing numbers of people voting for far right political parties - I think this is as a direct result of the previous Labour government slurring people who questioned unfettered immigration as being "racist". I'm not saying its right but people will inevitably react negatively to being told "what to think & what to say". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I think broadcasters have a respobsibility to see if things should be changed in case it offends. Take Frankie Boyle, wasn't it a couple of years ago he made what he saw as 'comedy' comments on Downs Syndrome? And didn't he also make comments on Katie Prices' son Harvey's learning disabilities? Why? These things aren't even remotely funny, they're just sick, so are the people who laugh. So would you have wanted the CPS to prosecute Boyle under disability anti-discrimination laws? For whats it worth, I do agree the jokes were in bad taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 LR, The sexist banter you put up with on here. People say some really sexist things to you. They ARE 100% joking of course. Are you offended though? Or do you recognise the humour of certain people? But if I'm reading and thinking... Yes this is offensive material. Women could be put off by this humour. I think this forum needs a crackdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 So would you have wanted the CPS to prosecute Boyle under disability anti-discrimination laws? For whats it worth, I do agree the jokes were in bad taste. Yes. Why not? I'd expect to be done for it if I said the same things to somebody in the street, at a match or at work. Why should he be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrivateDerby Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I like and agree with both Davenportram and Ladyram a lot of the time but as you two are mods, from now on I hope you delete the hundreds of offensive comments made on here everyday and get Daveo to ban the perpetrators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Yes. Why not? I'd expect to be done for it if I said the same things to somebody in the street, at a match or at work. Why should he be different? Well this is where you & I will have to agree to disagree. Furthermore, if the authorities won't prosecute Frankie Boyle for jokes of that nature, why are 2 football fans at Brighton subject to a "higher threshold" of offence? Its that inconsistency of treatment that I'm driving at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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