If you put...

[Bris Vegas]

I think even lower EPL clubs could demonstrate some real skill and class if they come up against a more timid side. West Ham have some QUALITY players, and they're bottom, they have the power of about 2 Almeiras I'd say. It's just when you get EPL v EPL it often becomes nothing more than a fight between 22 gazelles leaping from one end of the pitch to the other. Most clubs, if they were allowed to play, would play some nice stuff, especially when clubs like West Brom have Carlos Velas around. Not saying they quite have the skill that gets taught in latin countries virtually from the womd but the EPL makes some teams like worse than they are IMO.

You have to have the right balance. West Ham have our very own Pablo Barerra who is a class winger. He'd flourish for a team like Raal Zaragoza in Spain yet with West Ham half his team mates don't play this style and aren't on the same page.

It's the same as Pennant. With Zaragoza his first thoughts was to run, get the ball and run at the fullback. Time and time again he gifted away possession, Zaragoza don't play this way, he was never going to fit in there.

I think it's more down to a choice, rather than being allowed to play. They say in England the majority of goals come from territory gaining or mistakes from the defence (ie. within 3 passes). In Spain it's completely different.

I should probably add that it takes a good few years to build a culture of style.. For example, Stoke to go from how they are now to a team that attempts to play passing football would take at least 3-5 years, and it'd take them backwards before they go forwards. Managers aren't given long enough to stamp their authority in The PL also.

[Alph]

Or a dive by a Racing striker in the box..

K.Davies is class, he's set up the most chances in open play than any other player in The PL. Or so it was said by The BBC.

One thing that does it for me though is over two legs Spanish teams do seem to have the edge over English teams.. Sevilla beat a very good Spurs team over two legs a few years ago, Atletico beating Liverpool last year. I think it comes down to the away legs.

Finals are one offs.. But even still Sevilla and Atletico both beat English teams in the final. Our typical English style that the likes of Everton, Bolton, Stoke, Fulham play are good for a home team but away from home in Europe they just don't score goals. (I can also include Rangers/Celtic in this too).

I should include in Spain there is a more controlling way of playing. Possession football is vital and it also relieves pressure on the defence.. When a team is winning they can comfortably see the game out by keeping hold of the ball. Teams in England don't ever get taught this, more backs to the walls. You get the impression an English team in Europe can concede a goal at any moment. (Man Utd excluded)

Italy too. Although in Italy it seems that the control is emphasised defensively rather than attack. Teams aren't really too eager to open opponents up unless it presents itself. Most Italian sides seem happy not to lose. A few ofcourse will force the issue. But mostly it's a negative affair. And we've seen lately that Italian teams in Europe don't really seem to adapt the containing approach very well.

Contain, contain, contain. Some people find it boring. TBH, it can get boring. I should probably pay attention to Spanish football instead yeah?

[Duracell]

Or a dive by a Racing striker in the box..

K.Davies is class, he's set up the most chances in open play than any other player in The PL. Or so it was said by The BBC.

One thing that does it for me though is over two legs Spanish teams do seem to have the edge over English teams.. Sevilla beat a very good Spurs team over two legs a few years ago, Atletico beating Liverpool last year. I think it comes down to the away legs.

Finals are one offs.. But even still Sevilla and Atletico both beat English teams in the final. Our typical English style that the likes of Everton, Bolton, Stoke, Fulham play are good for a home team but away from home in Europe they just don't score goals. (I can also include Rangers/Celtic in this too).

I should include in Spain there is a more controlling way of playing. Possession football is vital and it also relieves pressure on the defence.. When a team is winning they can comfortably see the game out by keeping hold of the ball. Teams in England don't ever get taught this, more backs to the walls. You get the impression an English team in Europe can concede a goal at any moment. (Man Utd excluded)

All very good points.

It's interesting to see the age old battle of skill vs power drawing to a close. I think skill is winning the day, but both sides have influenced each other, and world football is meeting in the middle. And what you say is true, in Spain it's so measure, so sophisticated, and most of all - clever. We don't have many clever people involved in football in this country. Messi probably has twice the IQ of Rooney and I'd rather be in Gaurdiola's team in a pub quiz than Fergie's!

There's a reason why EPL has strong home teams, and it's routed in our culture. The atmosphere in La Liga games aren't a patch on Anfield or even Old Trafford when it gets going. That means La Liga sides aren't as reliant on the home fans as we are and have a more flat performance curve (ie, the difference between away and home performances aren't as great).

Turkish clubs in particular have fantastic home records in Europe. Their fans know how to scare the hell out of their "guests" and do their team a massive favour. They always get found out in the away legs though.

[Alph]

All very good points.

It's interesting to see the age old battle of skill vs power drawing to a close. I think skill is winning the day, but both sides have influenced each other, and world football is meeting in the middle. And what you say is true, in Spain it's so measure, so sophisticated, and most of all - clever. We don't have many clever people involved in football in this country. Messi probably has twice the IQ of Rooney and I'd rather be in Gaurdiola's team in a pub quiz than Fergie's!

There's a reason why EPL has strong home teams, and it's routed in our culture. The atmosphere in La Liga games aren't a patch on Anfield or even Old Trafford when it gets going. That means La Liga sides aren't as reliant on the home fans as we are and have a more flat performance curve (ie, the difference between away and home performances aren't as great).

Turkish clubs in particular have fantastic home records in Europe. Their fans know how to scare the hell out of their "guests" and do their team a massive favour. They always get found out in the away legs though.

The missus mate's boyfriend is a Besiktas fan.

Jesus Christ. Amazing stuff. Youtube it. Incredible stuff. Could even rival the famous Lech Poznan at times. Looking forward to going to see them in October.

Can take me Black and White Derby scarf.

Will return the favour and bring him to a Derby game. Might pick a Leeds/Forest match. I wanna atleast show him a bit of noise!!

[StaffsRam]

They aren't midtable Spanish teams as such mate, more like top 6/7.

It's proof that teams that finish around 5th/6th/7th are actually strong teams, as they have consistantly won Europa League titles.. Something that an English team hasn't done since Liverpool beat Alaves around 8 years ago.

Spanish teams have also reached numerous semi-finals and finals in The CL and Europa League over the last decade or so. Celta Vigo, Alaves, Valenica, Barca, Real, Zaragoza, Atletico Madrid, Espanol, Villareal, Sevilla etc..

Incidentaly I can't remember the last time a 'midtable' PL team won The Europa League. Liverpool won it against Alaves 5-4 in 2001 I think it was. In the past 6 years it's gone back to Spain 3 times. Same as The CL. Dominance.

As for those 3 in question. Villareal would push for top 4, Sevilla and Espanol around 7th-8th. They're all better than Bolton, Fulham and Newcastle who are 8th, 9th and 10th I think. Probably on Evertons level.

I'll post up a 40 league team on where I believe they'd finish if you combine the two leagues.

I don't really think that English teams necessarily take the Europa League seriously anymore. Middlesboro' and Fulham have reached the final in recent years, whereas English teams who've dropped out of the CL rarely give it much thought.

For saying that Spanish teams have done well of late, it hasn't helped them usurp England at the top of the European co-efficients table.

Personally, I don't think that that there's much difference between La Liga and the Premier League, I think both are superior to every other league in Europe.

[uttoxram75]

Bit harsh questioning Fergie's intelligence Bunny! While I never want to see Manure win a game, ever, Ferguson has proven himself to be a highly intelligent man.

He is one of the long line of working class football men who have acheived greatness by their skill, hardwork, drive, committment and brilliant decisions over a number of years.

Busby

Shankly

Stein

Clough

Paisley

Ferguson

all men from tough working class backgrounds who excelled at what they did.

They had a natural intelligence that led them to greatness.

To suggest Guardiola is more intelligent than Ferguson (without knowing), is a bit snobbish.

[Duracell]

Bit harsh questioning Fergie's intelligence Bunny! While I never want to see Manure win a game, ever, Ferguson has proven himself to be a highly intelligent man.

He is one of the long line of working class football men who have acheived greatness by their skill, hardwork, drive, committment and brilliant decisions over a number of years.

Busby

Shankly

Stein

Clough

Paisley

Ferguson

all men from tough working class backgrounds who excelled at what they did.

They had a natural intelligence that led them to greatness.

To suggest Guardiola is more intelligent than Ferguson (without knowing), is a bit snobbish.

Wasn't insinuating that Fergie is stupid - infact he's quite clearly a genius.

I'm just saying Guardiola's intelligence is more rounded, going by what I've read and what I've heard from his near-fluent English interviews.

[uttoxram75]

You mean he can speak a foreign language fluently? I don't suppose Fergie had the chance to learn one when he was growing up in Scotland.

Its not a measure of greater intelligence.

[EdinburghRam]

The reason English teams don't win the europa league is because it doesn't matter to them, it's a bit of a nuisance. They want to win it obviously but don't really care, many more riches available in the domestic league.

[Duracell]

You mean he can speak a foreign language fluently? I don't suppose Fergie had the chance to learn one when he was growing up in Scotland.

Its not a measure of greater intelligence.

I wasn't saying that was his only sign of intelligence either

Guardiola's not just had the opportunity though, he's clearly excelled at it. English isn't that well taught in Spain compared to other European countries and he's never had any real need to learn it to the degree he does.

His understanding of the human mind, his grasp of timing the body etc is on the same level as Fergie, who's twice his age. Fergie's learnt on the job, Guardiola's sat down and grasped the latest stuff.

I've also read somewhere in FFT that he has incredible general knowledge, meaning he can relate to his players purely by knowing so many subjects very well.

Anyway, I don't see the need in actually finding out how clever these too guys are. They're both geniuses, yes - but my point was that the Spanish way of thinking is generally more intelligent than our way of doing things.

[Bris Vegas]

You mean he can speak a foreign language fluently? I don't suppose Fergie had the chance to learn one when he was growing up in Scotland.

Its not a measure of greater intelligence.

I think Fergie is switched on, quite deluded and extremely biased towards refereeing decisions at times, but switched on.

Manchester United for me don't play like a typical English team. But their team is littered with a fair few players that aren't exactly 'intelligent'.

Anderson after what 4 years in England still can't speak English. Chicharito on the other hand has decent English after only 9 months. I'm not exactly 'bright' and I learned Spanish well enough with only 3 months of Schooling, puts to shame a fair number of footballers.

As for Edins comment I have no idea why an English team wouldn't want to win it. Someone like Villa, Everton, Spurs, Man City should go all out to win these trophies because no way are they going to win any other European trophy.

Plus it's also an insult to the fans if they travel 2,000 miles to Ukraine just to see them field a reserve team and recieve a tonking in the process.

Getting CL football for the big teams outside the big 4 is counted as the priority for these managers. What they don't understand is when they inevitably fail they can't improve their squad as they hardly look like a challenging force to top European players when they see they've been comfortably beaten over two legs by semi-decent Portuguese team.

[Plan B]

Would prefer an English team to win though.