mcsilks Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Showing what a class manager he is at Ipswich. I guess he's learning from the mistakes he made with us. A quite incredible start to his reign there. Makes me pretty sick when I see a team like Ipswich with some great youngsters making waves in the league and then I look at our rather pathetic looking excuse of a squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NothernRam Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 It's just showing what a crap manager Keane is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Ipswich have a squad capable of upper midtable, he's made a great start but I'd wait until next season to judge him.. Wait until he's stamped his authority more with signings and such.. Many managers have a honeymoon period, Brian McDermott took Reading from the relegation places to a comfortable top half position last season, even Nigel Clough had one.. Also, just of note, Palace have done reasonably well since they've had a new manager too. Also agree with NorthernRam, Roy Keane is a poor manager. Of your youth comment, Ipswich have consistantly churned out quality youngsters over the past 10-15 years or so.. As have West Ham, Soton and to an extent Forest too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 It's just showing what a crap manager Keane is. No, it is showing what a poor manager Keane was AND what a great start Jewell has had and what a positive effect he has had on the team. How about a little credit where credit is due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 See changing the manager doesnt work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramshankered Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Showing what a class manager he is at Ipswich. I guess he's learning from the mistakes he made with us. A quite incredible start to his reign there. Makes me pretty sick when I see a team like Ipswich with some great youngsters making waves in the league and then I look at our rather pathetic looking excuse of a squad. ...or alternatively Jewell is in his honeymoon period with Ipswich, just like Clough had after he took over from Jewell himself at Derby. Honestly, Derby fans make me despair on occasions. Always looking for a new way to dig the knife in, no matter who's in charge. I bet when Jewell was at Derby you were equally negative about his underperforming and now listen to you? Sheer hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Paul Jewell at Wigan - Did a great job Paul Jewell at Derby - Crap Paul Jewell at Ipswich - Looking good so far Phil Brown at Derby - Crap Phil Brown at Hull - Did a decent job Phil Brown at Preston - Doesn't look great Could move onto players with Danny Graham, Peter Whittingham, Lee Camp who were crap at Derby but have gone to and done well at other clubs. Just because a manager or player has a bad time at one club does not make them crap all of a sudden, sometimes for whatever reason it doesn't work out at certain clubs. Paul Jewell is an experienced manager, a decent manager and so far he is doing the business for Ipswich. Even if it is a honeymoon period or whatever, it shows that the players respect him as a manager and they are playing for him right now. Obviously that could change with time due to fall outs with certain players but he deserves credit for what he's came in and done so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 ...or alternatively Jewell is in his honeymoon period with Ipswich, just like Clough had after he took over from Jewell himself at Derby. Honestly, Derby fans make me despair on occasions. Always looking for a new way to dig the knife in, no matter who's in charge. I bet when Jewell was at Derby you were equally negative about his underperforming and now listen to you? Sheer hypocrisy. I'm not digging the knife in at all. I'm 100% behind Clough and was 100% behind Jewell. I have always thought Jewell was a good manager and now he is proving it. All he needed was the right tools to work with. So, I suggest you stick your "sheer hypocrisy" comment where the sun doesn't shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramshankered Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm not digging the knife in at all. I'm 100% behind Clough and was 100% behind Jewell. I have always thought Jewell was a good manager and now he is proving it. All he needed was the right tools to work with. So, I suggest you stick your "sheer hypocrisy" comment where the sun doesn't shine. If you're 100% behind Clough then why make ultra negative comments like "...and then I look at our rather pathetic looking excuse of a squad"? If you're really behind him then starting threads like this are a bizarre way of expressing your support. You're contradicting yourself with each comment! Like I said hypocrisy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 If you're 100% behind Clough then why make ultra negative comments like "...and then I look at our rather pathetic looking excuse of a squad"? If you're really behind him then starting threads like this are a bizarre way of expressing your support. You're contradicting yourself with each comment! Like I said hypocrisy... I'll say again. Compared to others, we have a pathetic looking squad. That is not the fault of our manager, more the fault that he is working on a shoestring. Where is the hypocrisy? Where have I contradicted myself? Explain yourself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby_Dave Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Paul Jewell at Wigan - Did a great job Paul Jewell at Derby - Crap Paul Jewell at Ipswich - Looking good so far Phil Brown at Derby - Crap Phil Brown at Hull - Did a decent job Phil Brown at Preston - Doesn't look great Could move onto players with Danny Graham, Peter Whittingham, Lee Camp who were crap at Derby but have gone to and done well at other clubs. Just because a manager or player has a bad time at one club does not make them crap all of a sudden, sometimes for whatever reason it doesn't work out at certain clubs. Paul Jewell is an experienced manager, a decent manager and so far he is doing the business for Ipswich. Even if it is a honeymoon period or whatever, it shows that the players respect him as a manager and they are playing for him right now. Obviously that could change with time due to fall outs with certain players but he deserves credit for what he's came in and done so far. I have to disagree with Lee Camp!!! He was no means crap at Derby sold way before he should of been. Just a shame his dad was a bit of a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramshankered Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'll say again. Compared to others, we have a pathetic looking squad. That is not the fault of our manager, more the fault that he is working on a shoestring. Where is the hypocrisy? Where have I contradicted myself? Explain yourself... So let me get this straight? You're totally behind Clough *but* you can't stand the squad he's put together and have nothing but bad things to say about it? To my mind that is an indirect dig at Clough - granted he has had to work under tight constraints - but the current playing staff is still for the most part his batch of players. Surely *some* of the responsibility for how poorly they have performed of late must fall partially at the manager's door? Manager and squad are intrinsically linked – there’s no smoke without fire - so having a go at one to an extend means there is problems lying with the other - and with this logic in place is it not contradictory to say in one breadth you love the manager but hate the squad??? That, sir, is where your contradiction lies. The whole point of this thread is to draw comparisons between Paul Jewell's current success using players at Ipswich with Clough's current batch at Derby. You’re drawing attention to that comparison to help reinforce your assessment that “our players are pathetic†– by using Jewell as your example, you hope to emphasise just how low we have sunk – “look an ex-manager who failed at Derby is succeeding elsewhere, this MUST mean DCFC are total rubbish at the moment!!!†Yet your argument is flawed - Jewell is in the fabled honeymoon period. There’s still time for him to sink or swim. Also as Daveo has pointed out, it is a proven fact that both managers and players can go somewhere and succeed then fail elsewhere, so drawing comparisons between Derby and Ipswich at this point in time is jumping the gun a bit, eh? Finally, if you’re willing to make comments like that about Clough’s team, then I wouldn’t have put it past you to make similar statements regarding Jewell’s Derby team back in the day – yet here you are praising him. That’s where the hypocrisy lies. I was probably a little harsh in my assessment of your post; I just tire of endless knee jerk reaction threads set up to stir up the flames, rather than making useful points that genuinely encourage debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramshankered Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 On an aside, does anyone else remember how it was Jewell's Wigan that pipped Ipswich for automatic promotion a few years back. It was the same season Derby came 4th under Burley, one place beneath Ipswich. Funny how things work out isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 So let me get this straight? You're totally behind Clough *but* you can't stand the squad he's put together and have nothing but bad things to say about it? To my mind that is an indirect dig at Clough - granted he has had to work under tight constraints - but the current playing staff is still for the most part his batch of players. Surely *some* of the responsibility for how poorly they have performed of late must fall partially at the manager's door? Manager and squad are intrinsically linked – there’s no smoke without fire - so having a go at one to an extend means there is problems lying with the other - and with this logic in place is it not contradictory to say in one breadth you love the manager but hate the squad??? That, sir, is where your contradiction lies. The whole point of this thread is to draw comparisons between Paul Jewell's current success using players at Ipswich with Clough's current batch at Derby. You’re drawing attention to that comparison to help reinforce your assessment that “our players are pathetic†– by using Jewell as your example, you hope to emphasise just how low we have sunk – “look an ex-manager who failed at Derby is succeeding elsewhere, this MUST mean DCFC are total rubbish at the moment!!!†Yet your argument is flawed - Jewell is in the fabled honeymoon period. There’s still time for him to sink or swim. Also as Daveo has pointed out, it is a proven fact that both managers and players can go somewhere and succeed then fail elsewhere, so drawing comparisons between Derby and Ipswich at this point in time is jumping the gun a bit, eh? Finally, if you’re willing to make comments like that about Clough’s team, then I wouldn’t have put it past you to make similar statements regarding Jewell’s Derby team back in the day – yet here you are praising him. That’s where the hypocrisy lies. I was probably a little harsh in my assessment of your post; I just tire of endless knee jerk reaction threads set up to stir up the flames, rather than making useful points that genuinely encourage debate. Let me go through your reply.....paragraph by paragraph. Yes, I am 100% behind Clough and I still maintain that our squad looks pathetic when compared to a few of the other sides in the same division. I remain 100% behind our manager as we need to give him time to get things right and given the choice, I don't believe he would have brought in many of the players that the financial costraints have forced him too. In your mind it was was an indirect dig at Clough. Well, you have answered that. It was merely "in your mind" as you put it. The playing staff is in the main his own but had he been supported financially that playing staff would have been very different. I am not being contradictory by saying I find our squad largely "pathetic" but still rate the manager. Again, I repeat, his hands are tied. Your following paragraph about comparisons is merely your incorrect interpretation of my post. I started the post to draw attention to how well Jewell is doing with Ipswich and reinforce the fact that despite what happened with us, he is in fact a highly talented manager. What it does draw attention to is just how poor a team he inherited at Derby and also that he did in fact make mistakes and is learing / has learned from those. Of course managers can go and succeed anywhere. Football management is very much horses for courses. The start Jewell has made however is IMO a little better than most honeymoon periods. Their best run for many a year and a 6-0 win away from home?! That's some honeymoon... I never once had a dig at Jewell while he was at Derby. I supported him all the way despite him making many mistakes and by his own admission, panic buying. There is no hypocrisy there whatsoever. You say you are tired of the knee jerk reactions? Well, so am I but I would say that your initial knee jerk reaction to my post then must scream of hipocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 my two penneth... Jewell was nothing short of a useless disgrace at Derby County. Clough is making a big mistake that jewell made,falling out with his players. I think Jewell left at the right time and I would hope that Clough leaves at the end of the season,unless there is a miraculous turn around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramshankered Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Let me go through your reply.....paragraph by paragraph. Yes, I am 100% behind Clough and I still maintain that our squad looks pathetic when compared to a few of the other sides in the same division. I remain 100% behind our manager as we need to give him time to get things right and given the choice, I don't believe he would have brought in many of the players that the financial costraints have forced him too. I acknowledge your point that the financial constraints placed upon Clough have affected his choice of players, however you have glossed over the fact that squad performance is linked to management style. If you 100% back the manager then that’s great and I’m all for that, but that particular manager has helped shaped the current squad – so surely to some extent you must back the squad too. In which case calling them ‘pathetic’, as I’ve already pointed out, goes against the idea of 100% backing the manager. It’s a negative thing to say about players he’s picked out. Let me put it a different way – you hire a painter and commission him to paint you a masterpiece, but give him little money to buy paints, etc. Consequently the painter chooses to buy poor quality paints, which partially jeopardise the calibre of the final painting. However, even though the paints aren’t the best, it is the painter’s responsibility to manipulate them to best effect (that’s why you hired him in the first place) – if he fails to do so, it is not entirely the fault of the paints themselves, and any criticism levelled at them would indirectly question the ability of the painter himself. You could argue that if he was a painter worth his salt, he should’ve still been able to use the paints at his disposal to better effect then he has. Equally you would be partially responsible for giving him little money in the first place. The point I’m trying to make in a long-winded way is that you can’t lay the blame exclusively at x, y, or z, because singling out one factor (i.e. our players are rubbish) for criticism deliberately ignores other factors that have contributed to the failure. In your mind it was was an indirect dig at Clough. Well, you have answered that. It was merely "in your mind" as you put it. The playing staff is in the main his own but had he been supported financially that playing staff would have been very different. I think that just highlights the weakness in your original thread post – you make the point that ‘players are pathetic’ without fully justifying your argument. Thus you leave your post open to interpretation from other people, in which case I think it’s entirely fair that I would have the reaction I have had. It's obvious to me now you were aiming at the owners, however that simply isn't made clear in your earlier post. I am not being contradictory by saying I find our squad largely "pathetic" but still rate the manager. Again, I repeat, his hands are tied. As I’ve pointed out the two are linked. His hands are indeed tied, I’m not questioning that, but he is responsible for getting the best out of them regardless, and their “pathetic†performances of late are partially down to his decisions as a manager. So again, you’re backing a manager whose decisions are could be argued as one of the core potential reasons for the players being so “pathetic� If you can’t see the contradiction there, then you’re simply choosing to cover your ears to the facts. Your following paragraph about comparisons is merely your incorrect interpretation of my post. I started the post to draw attention to how well Jewell is doing with Ipswich and reinforce the fact that despite what happened with us, he is in fact a highly talented manager. What it does draw attention to is just how poor a team he inherited at Derby and also that he did in fact make mistakes and is learing / has learned from those. Again I can argue this is a weakness in your original post, but I acknowledge I misinterpreted what you were getting at with your post. I think my reaction was completely understandable, but I’m prepared to accept that this was my fault as well. Of course managers can go and succeed anywhere. Football management is very much horses for courses. The start Jewell has made however is IMO a little better than most honeymoon periods. Their best run for many a year and a 6-0 win away from home?! That's some honeymoon... I never once had a dig at Jewell while he was at Derby. I supported him all the way despite him making many mistakes and by his own admission, panic buying. There is no hypocrisy there whatsoever. I have made another bold assumption here, however people don’t tend to change their stripes often – it’s a fair to say that based on the evidence in this thread you would feel the same about PJ’s playing staff as you do about Clough’s. I admit I was wrong to make that assessment of you, but that’s based off my experience of dealing with people in forums on the whole. You say you are tired of the knee jerk reactions? Well, so am I but I would say that your initial knee jerk reaction to my post then must scream of hipocrisy. Just re-read your post man! It’s as equally scathing in its assessment of players as it is vague about the reasons behind that criticism. You opened yourself up to the response you’ve got. I’ve acknowledged my faults in my previous posts – isn’t it time you did the same? What grinds my gears are posts that come across as negativity for the sake of it, rather than, like I mentioned, encouraging debate with sound thinking. 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red fever Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Derby are doing as well as last season ! BUT because Derby got up to 4th & almost went 3rd in the league, the expectation level grew. You can't sell good players & expect to improve. But Derby are not any worse than last season. Once the finances are sorted & Clough can get a few players in that can really improve the side, you will be able to see what the lad is made of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 we're 1 point behind last season Actually Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red fever Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 we're 1 point behind last season Actually Ralph. That's a point ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 my two penneth... Jewell was nothing short of a useless disgrace at Derby County. Clough is making a big mistake that jewell made,falling out with his players. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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