Are some posters still trying to hate Nigel? Or does Wembley still hurt too much?

[ramblur]

8 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

You really must me old and deaf then. Because there was always plenty of moans and groans from the crowd over McGovern being picked and playing.

Dead right,and it's the sad reason why John has a much greater affinity to the gumps.I have to admit that I wasn't his biggest fan early doors (never moaned though),but I gradually warmed to him,and was well and truly won over when he stuck to Alan Ball like a limpet,snuffed him out of the game and reduced him to frustrated displays of petulance.

Must also admit that 'live',I thought his goals were a bit scrawny, but now realise I was prejudiced by his awkward running.Having watched several YT clips since,he was actually a pretty good finisher.

[Curtains]

12 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Dead right,and it's the sad reason why John has a much greater affinity to the gumps.I have to admit that I wasn't his biggest fan early doors (never moaned though),but I gradually warmed to him,and was well and truly won over when he stuck to Alan Ball like a limpet,snuffed him out of the game and reduced him to frustrated displays of petulance.

Must also admit that 'live',I thought his goals were a bit scrawny, but now realise I was prejudiced by his awkward running.Having watched several YT clips since,he was actually a pretty good finisher.

Brian Clough signed him for Derby from Hartlepool as soon as he arrived at Derby and Brian knew a player when he saw one .

Later took him to Forest. 

I honestly can't remember many Derby fans giving McGovern stick most admired his selfless running and effort for the team 

[ramblur]

8 hours ago, curtains said:

Captain McGovern 

curtains,I'm sorry but I don't think John looks back too fondly on his time with us.I've no doubt he has good memories of the achievements and probable dressing room camaraderie ,but the treatment he got from a lot of fans has quite obviously tainted those memories.

I remember Archie used to get stick early doors,because his passing was pretty poor for quite a long period ,but it improved immeasurably over the years. I often think back to this when I see Jamie Hanson criticised over his distribution.Young players have to be allowed to develop aspects of their game,you just have to show some faith in them -although Archie didn't come through our youth system,he was pretty young when he came to us from Preston.

I used to love Willie and was very sad when he left. Went to West Brom to see his replacement (on his debut),and he looked OKish-good running,but poor passing and I remember him hitting one shot from range (towards our end) which was only narrowly over the top.Went away shaking my head and thinking 'he's no Willie Carlin'.I was right of course,because they were different kinds of players,but what a buy Archie turned out to be!

[DEL]

22 hours ago, David said:

Oh you're one of those, always fun to reply to.

Hate to point this out but you're on the internet posting yourself, glad your ears work though as you seem to be having issues with your eyes as I haven't said otherwise with regards to Keogh being a top player.

Disagree with me that the negativity isn't a problem and ignore the fans fine, I don't believe it's a major problem myself although if the opportunity presents itself then I think we should take it.

Now you do realise this forum is full of members from around the world right, fans that don't have the luxury of being able to attend every game, whilst your pops at me maybe personal you're also grouping a large number that visit this forum in what you are saying.

I'm not on the other side of the world, although I do currently have a stomach issue that has prevented me from going to games.

December the 19th, Derby U23's v Man City U23's was the last game I was on the way to, traffic meant we missed it and turned round. (Fun fact it's also the last alcoholic drink I've had due to said stomach issue)

After that I haven't been to a game, my season ticket, yes that's right, season ticket wasn't used. I'm ok though thanks for asking, I've got more scans to go for but they think I'll live so don't forget my Xmas card this year!

Now let's put my personal issues aside because I'm sure you don't want to hear about those, let's get down to the "I go to more games so I know more than you" as this is where the fun starts.

So you automatically assume that by going to the game means you know more than other fans? You bought the ticket, and that ticket gives you superior knowledge.

Well I disagree and I'll tell you why. The following picture is from Rotherham away which I attended, yes, I was there in person, I had the ticket, the foot really is mine!

As you can see my view was somewhat limited being on the front row but I was in the ground, I had that ticket of knowledge.

But I will tell you now that given my view there is no way on earth I could tell you if Bent was offside at the other end, I mean I could talk to other fans in the concourse because that's more knowledge right? Myself though not a thing.

Do you know how I watched that game in the end?

Rams Player.

They have the full 90 minutes of every game a few days after it's been played, it's great really. A lot of fans use it, especially those that live outside the UK.

The one camera angle was better than being front row in the ground.

Now not everyone is on the front row, not everyone has that poor view I'll give you that. But have you ever turned to one of those mates of yours to point at something, maybe Keogh polishing his halo and missed an off the ball incident that the crowd goes nuts about but you missed it?

Did you press pause and rewind? no. You can't.

So if you want to tell me how great going to games is go for it, I'm with you, I love it and I'll be attending a fair few hopefully this season although I didn't renew my season ticket until the doctors get me 100% sorted having wasted the best part of £500 last year, in fact make that a grand as I paid for the missus as well.

If you want to tell me your opinion is far superior than anyone else because you're a season ticket holder that goes to 8 games then get out of here with that s****, this is 2017 and technology allows fans to watch games from all different types of angles.

You're on a forum thats here for fans to discuss their opinions, you're surrounded by people that are not able to go to games but watch every game, think you know better? Log out is at the top right and stick to talking to just the fans in the concourses, that way you can be sure they know what they are talking about.

P.S only half fans book holidays when the football is on. I'll leave you with this pic of Keogh up on my living room wall, night night.

Have a like and that was best post I've seen in this thread. 

[ramblur]

12 minutes ago, curtains said:

Brian Clough signed him for Derby from Hartlepool as soon as he arrived at Derby and Brian knew a player when he saw one .

Later took him to Forest. 

I honestly can't remember many Derby fans giving McGovern stick most admired his selfless running and effort for the team 

We'll just have to differ on this. I can remember distasteful rumours going round that Brian only kept picking him because of some alleged fling he was having with John's mother. That's just a taste of what he used to get. I'm in your age range,so was well aware of where he came from.Brian played him right wing early on,before moving him to midfield (probably when he was a bit stronger,because he was very young when he came to us)  .

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, ramblur said:

We'll just have to differ on this. I can remember distasteful rumours going round that Brian only kept picking him because of some alleged fling he was having with John's mother. That's just a taste of what he used to get. I'm in your age range,so was well aware of where he came from.Brian played him right wing early on,before moving him to midfield (probably when he was a bit stronger,because he was very young when he came to us)  .

Good read for you mate about John .

 

 

McGovern down the middle on derby day

Friday 16 September 2011 23:00 BST

First impressions, they say, are lasting impressions. John McGovern's initial experience of the man with whom he would scale the heights at Derby County and Nottingham Forest was not auspicious.

It was the mid-1960s and a motley crew of teenaged trialists at Hartlepools had been lined up to shake hands with the club's brash new manager. Upon reaching the 15-year-old who captained the nearby grammar school at rugby and cricket, Brian Clough provided an early glimpse of his penchant for the unexpected.

"Stand up straight, get your shoulders back and get your hair cut," Clough snapped with what would become a familiar nasal twang. "You look like a girl." McGovern, a devotee of the Rolling Stones in those days, cycled home to tell his mother "the bogeyman" had arrived at the club. He, for one, would not be going back.

He did return, of course, not only serving Clough in his first managerial outpost but also at the fierce East Midlands rivals, as well as joining him at Leeds during what is now redefined as the Damned United era.

It was McGovern who scored the goal for Derby, against Bill Shankly's Liverpool, that effectively sealed the 1971-72 league championship. And at Forest, where he became the great man's captain, he lifted the European Cup twice, the only Scot to do so.

The fortunes of both the Rams and Reds have dipped since Clough and the supreme talent-spotter Peter Taylor ran the show, first at the Baseball Ground and later, 15 miles down the A52 (or the Brian Clough Way as it was renamed after his death in 2004).

When McGovern, 61 years old and working on what promises to be a fascinating autobiography, returns to the City Ground today to cover the 88th competitive derby as a summariser for BBC Radio Nottingham, they will be contesting Championship points. Forest's need is more pressing.

Under the stewardship of Steve McClaren, the former England manager (and ex-Derby coach), last season's play-off semi-finalists lie fourth from bottom in the embryonic table, having collected only five points from six matches and crashing 4-1 to West Ham in their most recent appearance before their own fans. By contrast, Derby – with one-time Forest mainstay Nigel Clough in charge – won their opening four fixtures. Despite two defeats, they are in fifth spot.

Last season, when Forest completed a double over Clough Jnr's side, winning the home fixture 5-2, former Derby manager Billy Davies led them to sixth position and a failed tilt at the play-offs, compared with their neighbours' 19th. This time, the standings are almost exactly reversed, but McGovern – whose first, uncomfortable brush with Clough Snr underlined the folly of rushing to judgement – cautions that it is too early to suggest their fortunes will continue in the same vein. "They could yet finish in the same positions as last season," he argues, a professional viewpoint rather than a partisan one. "Forest have had some managerial upheaval and Steve McClaren is struggling to get a result, but I think they have a better squad than Derby, who I feel have over-achieved so far. There's still 40 games to go – plenty of time to turn things around.

"Forest have got to get their season going in this game. If they really are ambitious to get promotion back to the Premier League, they must start getting points on the board. The West Ham defeat was a disaster – every department of the team was lacking – but at Southampton last Saturday [a 3-2 loss] they played well against a team still riding a wave after promotion.

"At the moment I'd only call Forest's position 'teething problems'. The commitment at Southampton was fine. They scored two magnificent goals and could just as easily have won it by the odd goal. I fancy them to beat Derby, and in Lewis McGugan they have the potential match-winner. For once in this derby the home side are the underdogs, which may help them psychologically."

McGovern appreciates from personal experience the value of self-belief to a player, as did his late mentor. "Brian Clough used to tell us: 'If I could give you all a confidence pill before a game, I could go home and watch the racing on television'," he recalls. As a midfielder not noted for elegance or speed – he has a muscle missing from his upper back that made his running look ungainly – his worth was not obvious to some managers. He never, for instance, won a full cap, though his man-marking prowess and ability to cover the centre-backs might have been a precious counter-weight to the flair that Scotland once had in spades.

So what does he think Clough saw in him? "Dedication, commitment and honesty," he replies. "In the last minute, whether we were 3-0 up or down, I'd be playing the same way. I had no pace or physical presence. But because I could control and pass a ball, I made a career out of football. I understood the game, and I knew that, over 90 minutes, I could play against any midfield player in the world and do OK."

Clough swiftly realised it too, and McGovern, in turn, felt "comfortable" playing for him and freely admits he owes him "every medal I ever won".

Similar complaints about a lack of pace were levelled at Nigel Clough when he was "the number nine" in a later Forest line-up. Like McGovern, however, he used the ball intelligently and could see situations quickly. Not that his contribution to Forest's cause will count for anything this afternoon – he was embroiled in an altercation with Davies two seasons back – but McGovern has been impressed by the way he has followed in distinguished footsteps at Pride Park.

"He's done a fantastic job without a great deal of financial help. During the transfer window last January, Forest got Paul Konchesky, an England international, on loan from Liverpool, whereas Derby's big signing was Ben Davies from Notts County. That shows the constraints he's working under. It's a tough remit to win matches when you have to reduce wages and sell your best players. Even Einstein couldn't solve that equation."

The young Clough, 45, has also had to contend with criticism, particularly during Derby's slump last winter, that he owed his position and continued employment to the family name. McGovern scoffs at the suggestion. "His record at Burton Albion virtually guaranteed him the Derby job even if he wasn't a Clough. They were 15 points clear in the Conference before he left them. How could they have ignored him when he was on the doorstep?"

McGovern describes the son of Ol' Big 'Ead as "a strong individual" and adds, pertinently, "he's very much his own man". As for McClaren, he hopes he can overcome his early setbacks to improve on his new club's successive anti-climaxes under Davies. "They keep making the play-offs but they haven't reached the final once," he says. "It's like Groundhog Day."

As the parochial struggle to command Brian Clough's legacy resumes today, Forest would settle for reliving last season's relative successes over and over again.

McGovern under clough

Hartlepool (1965-68) 76 games, 7 goals

Derby County (1968-74) 227 games, 20 goals

Leeds United (1974) 4 games, 0 goals

Nottingham Forest (1974-82) 335 games 11 goals

Total:642 games, 38 goals

 

Honours

Derby County Division One title (1972), Divison Two title (1969)

Nottingham Forest Division One title (1978), European Cup (1979, 1980), Super Cup (1979), League Cup (1978, 1979)

Reuse content

[ramblur]

Thanks for a great read,curtains. It always amused me how Brian never let him forget 'that' back pass v Arsenal (I can still see it vividly now-I was there),and I remember another anecdote. I might get the wording wrong here,but the essence is correct. John had the ball at his feet on the training ground and Brian,pointing to somewhere in the distance barked out 'McGovern,I want you to get the ball to there'. John set off dribbling the ball to point B and was obviously pretty pleased with himself,until he saw BC plant a ball where he'd started and passed the ball to point B (can't remember the cutting comment he came out with).For those who think we'll miss Ince's dribbling ability,BC never had any dribblers in his Derby sides. Alan used pace to get past his FB and the King just glided past with sublime balance.

Sorry to go on about BC,but I remember him giving 2 long interviews about our first season back.The first one contained a comment I remember about Alan,something like 'Alan Hinton for £20k (or whatever similar figure it was),where would you find anyone for that kind of money.It also highlighted his unforgiving nature as he went on about losing in the cup to a SECOND DIVISION side,to an OWN GOAL (always wondered what Dave thought about that comment). Twas a pretty poignant memory for me,because I was in digs with QPR fans at the time,and had a miserable few months over it.

Also remember Saxton giving away a penalty against Leeds (bad mistake) and he didn't last very long after that. You might know the answer to this - did BC try to get Graham Cross from Leicester before he got Roy Mac? I can remember him saying that he wouldn't sign him now even if he crawled all the way from Leicester (probably just because he turned us down!).   

Just remembered,Cross was a cricketer (the thing that led to the demise of Bucko) and I wonder if he insisted on continuing with the cricket if he signed?

[Lokidoki]

Thanks guys for making this a great thread. Funnily enough I had not read this earlier when I made my comments about John McG not always being liked, this on the wardrobe-watch thread, so what a coincidence.

What amazes me is when I watch these 70's matches again, how much my memory has slightly changed what I actually saw, although Hector's goal against Benfica was suddenly brought back on line after all these years.

Perhaps too much beer over the years lol. 

[ramblur]

1 minute ago, Lokidoki said:

Thanks guys for making this a great thread. Funnily enough I had not read this earlier when I made my comments about John McG not always being liked, this on the wardrobe-watch thread, so what a coincidence.

What amazes me is when I watch these 70's matches again, how much my memory has slightly changed what I actually saw, although Hector's goal against Benfica was suddenly brought back on line after all these years.

Perhaps too much beer over the years lol. 

I think what it shows is that you can allow personal prejudices about players to taint your judgement of them. I wonder if a few on here might look back (in future) on certain players,but not the John Osborne variety.

[Curtains]

28 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Thanks for a great read,curtains. It always amused me how Brian never let him forget 'that' back pass v Arsenal (I can still see it vividly now-I was there),and I remember another anecdote. I might get the wording wrong here,but the essence is correct. John had the ball at his feet on the training ground and Brian,pointing to somewhere in the distance barked out 'McGovern,I want you to get the ball to there'. John set off dribbling the ball to point B and was obviously pretty pleased with himself,until he saw BC plant a ball where he'd started and passed the ball to point B (can't remember the cutting comment he came out with).For those who think we'll miss Ince's dribbling ability,BC never had any dribblers in his Derby sides. Alan used pace to get past his FB and the King just glided past with sublime balance.

Sorry to go on about BC,but I remember him giving 2 long interviews about our first season back.The first one contained a comment I remember about Alan,something like 'Alan Hinton for £20k (or whatever similar figure it was),where would you find anyone for that kind of money.It also highlighted his unforgiving nature as he went on about losing in the cup to a SECOND DIVISION side,to an OWN GOAL (always wondered what Dave thought about that comment). Twas a pretty poignant memory for me,because I was in digs with QPR fans at the time,and had a miserable few months over it.

Also remember Saxton giving away a penalty against Leeds (bad mistake) and he didn't last very long after that. You might know the answer to this - did BC try to get Graham Cross from Leicester before he got Roy Mac? I can remember him saying that he wouldn't sign him now even if he crawled all the way from Leicester (probably just because he turned us down!).   

Just remembered,Cross was a cricketer (the thing that led to the demise of Bucko) and I wonder if he insisted on continuing with the cricket if he signed?

I vaguely remember that Brian tried to sign Graham Cross.

As regards Bobby Saxton I remember him being a decent Centre Half under Tim Ward and he later went on to have a decent management career.

Are you talking about Ian Buxton Centre forward ! 

You have an amazing memory Ramblur 

[ramblur]

1 minute ago, curtains said:

I vaguely remember that Brian tried to sign Graham Cross.

As regards Bobby Saxton I remember him being a decent Centre Half under Tim Ward and he later went on to have a decent management career.

Are you talking about Ian Burton Centre forward ! 

Dear,dear curtains,Ian Buxton! I thought Sacko was decent too,but you simply mustn't give away a penno against Leeds. I remember Bucko wanted to carry on playing for Derbyshire in the first couple of weeks of the footie season,and Brian gave him an ultimatum. I remember that when I was younger Ray Swallow and Ian Hall were also footballer/cricketers. Don't recall the latter playing for the Rams (probably before my time),but seem to remember him as a pretty good opening bat who scored several centuries? (Gritty and resolute and might remind you of John Edrich a bit?) I started watching Derbyshire in the Derek Morgan/Bucko/Les Jackson/Harold Rhodes era.

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Dear,dear curtains,Ian Buxton! I thought Sacko was decent too,but you simply mustn't give away a penno against Leeds. I remember Bucko wanted to carry on playing for Derbyshire in the first couple of weeks of the footie season,and Brian gave him an ultimatum. I remember that when I was younger Ray Swallow and Ian Hall were also footballer/cricketers. Don't recall the latter playing for the Rams (probably before my time),but seem to remember him as a pretty good opening bat who scored several centuries? (Gritty and resolute and might remind you of John Edrich a bit?) I started watching Derbyshire in the Derek Morgan/Bucko/Les Jackson/Harold Rhodes era.

No it was Ian Buxton  was it and I had amended it lol. . I hate predictive text sometimes when Buxton comes out as Burton etc .

Remember Ian Buxton and barrel chested Eddie Thomas and Derek Draper all very good players for Derby  

Ian Hall was a very good cricketer for Derbyshire as well as playing for DCFC so I'm told .

Did the Radio Derby commentary for cricket and football for along time along with the phone in. 

[ramblur]

9 minutes ago, curtains said:

No it was Ian Buxton  was it and I had amended it lol. . I hate predictive text sometimes when Buxton comes out as Burton etc .

Remember Ian Buxton and barrel chested Eddie Thomas and Derek Draper all very good players for Derby  

Ian Hall was a very good cricketer for Derbyshire as well as playing for DCFC so I'm told .

Did the Radio Derby commentary for cricket and football for along time along with the phone in. 

Remember having the pleasure of chatting to Mike Hendrick in the Exeter donkeys years ago.Very nice fella who constantly bemoaned the fact (in his opinion) that he wasn't fast enough. Told him there were many fast bowlers that sprayed the ball around that would have given an arm and a leg for his accuracy.

Apologies to all,will get back onto footie now.

[RamNut]

4 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Remember having the pleasure of chatting to Mike Hendrick in the Exeter donkeys years ago.Very nice fella who constantly bemoaned the fact (in his opinion) that he wasn't fast enough. Told him there were many fast bowlers that sprayed the ball around that would have given an arm and a leg for his accuracy.

Apologies to all,will get back onto footie now.

I hope you weren't telling him that whilst stood at the urinals.

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, Lokidoki said:

Thanks guys for making this a great thread. Funnily enough I had not read this earlier when I made my comments about John McG not always being liked, this on the wardrobe-watch thread, so what a coincidence.

And the point of my original 'not everyone loved McGovern' post was that it's not a modern phenomena to give players stick, just that the mode of communication has changed.  

Don't remember the scurrilous rumour that @ramblur mentioned "...Brian only kept picking him because of some alleged fling he was having with John's mother. That's just a taste of what he used to get." as I was too young to know of such things!

[RamNut]

From memory, "rubbish mcgovern" was a bit of a joke saying.

He was still popular esp after scoring the goal that won the title v Liverpool.

hinton took some stick but would still be in many peoples best ever 11. 

 

[ramblur]

9 hours ago, curtains said:

No it was Ian Buxton  was it and I had amended it lol. . I hate predictive text sometimes when Buxton comes out as Burton etc .

Remember Ian Buxton and barrel chested Eddie Thomas and Derek Draper all very good players for Derby  

Ian Hall was a very good cricketer for Derbyshire as well as playing for DCFC so I'm told .

Did the Radio Derby commentary for cricket and football for along time along with the phone in. 

No matter what 'farm' comes out as,it still stinks

[Curtains]

Good goal by McGovern for Derby at the City ground  

 

 

[ramblur]

4 minutes ago, curtains said:

Good goal by McGovern for Derby at the City ground  

 

 

Like I said before,the lad was a good finisher and gawd knows why I didn't see that at the time.Just shows how prejudice can taint your views,and i never gave him any verbal stick.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, ramblur said:

Like I said before,the lad was a good finisher and gawd knows why I didn't see that at the time.Just shows how prejudice can taint your views,and i never gave him any verbal stick.

Neither did I and really can't remember others but hey ho he was good.