Stive Pesley Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 16 hours ago, Andicis said: Yes, but my point is, you can strive for it, but what is the use moaning when there isn't a credible alternative? We can moan about it all we like, yet there is no fair system. All the systems have their detraction, I don't actually disagree with you in principle. But what did moaning without any credible solution help with either? My credible solution is for society to readjust its values to a healthier position. You admit that you agree with me on principle, and I'm sure on the point in question that most people do. It's not like I'm saying anything controversial. I'm just saying that it makes sense for society to value the things that are more important than money - over money. So if we all feel that is correct "in principle" - why do we all just roll over and think we can't change it? Look at the list of happiest countries and they are all the ones that have the balance right. Social democracies that value more than just money and the accumulation of profit above all else. It can be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, StivePesley said: My credible solution is for society to readjust its values to a healthier position. You admit that you agree with me on principle, and I'm sure on the point in question that most people do. It's not like I'm saying anything controversial. I'm just saying that it makes sense for society to value the things that are more important than money - over money. So if we all feel that is correct "in principle" - why do we all just roll over and think we can't change it? Look at the list of happiest countries and they are all the ones that have the balance right. Social democracies that value more than just money and the accumulation of profit above all else. It can be done The majority have small populations, though. That's my point in other threads. Most of the countries with the right balance have a population smaller than London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 40 minutes ago, Norman said: The majority have small populations, though. That's my point in other threads. Most of the countries with the right balance have a population smaller than London. That much is true yes. Although I'm not sure if you saying that we can't ever get there because the UK has too large a population (so therefore no point striving to make a healthier society) , or are you saying that it's *because* we have a larger population that we have such a distorted and unhealthy meritocracy in the first place? Or maybe both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, StivePesley said: That much is true yes. Although I'm not sure if you saying that we can't ever get there because the UK has too large a population (so therefore no point striving to make a healthier society) , or are you saying that it's *because* we have a larger population that we have such a distorted and unhealthy meritocracy in the first place? Or maybe both? I'm not saying there is no point. I am saying there are reasons why our society is like it is. Which I first pointed out in the thread about mass immigration and how that may cause the average wealth of the working class to fall. Distorting the society even more. Population size I am talking about here, not blaming everything on immigrants before you start. Unhealthy meritocracy (probably don't agree with you here, but for easiness) seems to have become more prevalent in larger countries, with larger populations. It seems the larger the population, the more the cracks of a capitalist society shows. I do not know of a better system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 54 minutes ago, Norman said: I'm not saying there is no point. I am saying there are reasons why our society is like it is. Which I first pointed out in the thread about mass immigration and how that may cause the average wealth of the working class to fall. Distorting the society even more. Population size I am talking about here, not blaming everything on immigrants before you start. Unhealthy meritocracy (probably don't agree with you here, but for easiness) seems to have become more prevalent in larger countries, with larger populations. It seems the larger the population, the more the cracks of a capitalist society shows. I do not know of a better system. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm calling for some sweeping new system, I'm just talking about resetting societal priorities so that we don't value the creation of wealth over everything else. Free markets are here to stay, I won't argue that, but it wasnt so long ago that we had free markets AND a society that cared about more fundamental things like health, community and family. The widespread ridiculous fixation with wealth above all else is a relatively recent phenomenon. You're right that cracks in capitalist society show more in larger societies, as by definition, higher numbers mean more visibility to the inequalities. If you imagine British society in 10-15 years time - what do you hope it will be like? More of what we have now (rampant and ever increasing inequality and a continued emphasis on creating value for individuals rather than for society in general) - or something different/better? Saying that we can't change the way things are because it's the best we've got is all well and good, but in 20 years time we might wish we'd done more to change things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Norman said: I do not know of a better system. You need gender communism with free block driveways for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Free markets are here to stay We don’t have free markets, we have crony capitalism where big corporations create monopolies, aided and abetted by the government, to syphon money out of the public purse. This is an inevitable result of the ideology that the market knows best and deregulation is the only way to run an economy. Properly regulated markets, administered by a competent government for the benefit of society as a whole, would actually be much freer in terms of diversity and competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Don’t agree with all of this, but there are some interesting observations: http://evonomics.com/ideology-based-seeing-markets-perfect-turned-ideology-justifying-crony-capitalism/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Lambchop said: You need gender communism with free block driveways for all. We need more females doing driveways, fencing, extensions etc. Then my inflated wage would decrease meaning I would seriously consider going back to university to do something I should have done 10 years a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm calling for some sweeping new system, I'm just talking about resetting societal priorities so that we don't value the creation of wealth over everything else. Free markets are here to stay, I won't argue that, but it wasnt so long ago that we had free markets AND a society that cared about more fundamental things like health, community and family. The widespread ridiculous fixation with wealth above all else is a relatively recent phenomenon. You're right that cracks in capitalist society show more in larger societies, as by definition, higher numbers mean more visibility to the inequalities. If you imagine British society in 10-15 years time - what do you hope it will be like? More of what we have now (rampant and ever increasing inequality and a continued emphasis on creating value for individuals rather than for society in general) - or something different/better? Saying that we can't change the way things are because it's the best we've got is all well and good, but in 20 years time we might wish we'd done more to change things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 33 minutes ago, Norman said: It was a genuine question If you imagine British society in 10-15 years time - what do you hope it will be like? More of what we have now - or something different/better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Norman said: We need more females doing driveways, fencing, extensions etc. Then my inflated wage would decrease meaning I would seriously consider going back to university to do something I should have done 10 years a go. Gizza job! Presumably you could go part time if you wanted to study? Better to take risks than regret doing nothing about it. What do you want to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeponacid Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Lambchop said: a competent government for the benefit of society as a whole. Or perhaps maybe a competent government/belief system that works for the benefit of all life on this planet, & indeed Mother Earth herself....not just human society... really gets on my wick the obsession of humans to always prioritise humanities needs above everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, sheeponacid said: a system that works for the benefit of all things, with whom we share this planet with, & indeed Mother Earth herself No disagreement from me. I think a fundamental change in attitude away from materialism towards a holistic view of life is essential. We’ve lost the basic wisdom of living a simple life imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: It was a genuine question If you imagine British society in 10-15 years time - what do you hope it will be like? More of what we have now - or something different/better? I want what you want. It would be ******* stupid to be believe anyone on here wouldn't want a healthier society.In my opinion, we are going further and further away. I think we mainly disagree on how you get there, more than anything. What I will say, neither major party in this country will make any sort of positives steps towards that in the next 15 years. That is clear to me. Therefore, thinking I am a realist (lol), my views are more to do with what I now think the next best possibility is, considering all the conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Lambchop said: Gizza job! Presumably you could go part time if you wanted to study? Better to take risks than regret doing nothing about it. What do you want to do? I'd happily talk to you about all this Friday morning whilst insulating a big loft? I was going to joke about if you're any good on your knees, but I won't. I'm not 100% sure, but my business management degree was a waste of time. Can you imagine me in the confines of an office lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 My knees are terrible, unfortunately... well, one of them is, anyway. It’s quite reassuring to hear someone say business management was a waste of time. I spent years in completely unproductive study and always rather envied people who had a skill or a trade. Five years of philosophy just taught me that I don’t know anything. Education should a lifelong process anyway, not just a few years at school or uni. It’s never too late to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 A good summary of the gender communists at the BBC as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 That’s just a ranty bloke who doesn’t have any statistics of his own. His comments are out of context and therefore useless; for example the ‘point’ about average age differences affecting overall salary gap didn’t include the actual annual percentage pay increase. The figures he gave assumed an annual pay increase of 2.5% whereas it was actually only 1%. We should have a detailed analysis in April: https://www.employeebenefits.co.uk/issues/december-2017/salary-sacrifice-arrangements-gender-gap/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 5 hours ago, Lambchop said: That’s just a ranty bloke who doesn’t have any statistics of his own. His comments are out of context and therefore useless; for example the ‘point’ about average age differences affecting overall salary gap didn’t include the actual annual percentage pay increase. The figures he gave assumed an annual pay increase of 2.5% whereas it was actually only 1%. We should have a detailed analysis in April: https://www.employeebenefits.co.uk/issues/december-2017/salary-sacrifice-arrangements-gender-gap/ Rants tend not to have a bibliography with 60 sources. Where does he assume that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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