Socialism debate

[Uptherams]

I recently made a blog post about Basic Income.

 

http://perky1106.wordpress.com/2014/07/29/basic-income-a-seasoned-idea-which-is-now-relevant-to-britain-2/

 

 The most socialist parties would in my book propose the smallest basic income amount as they will still want to throw endless amounts of money at unnecessary government spending instead of reassigning this to basic income. Also capitalists would love this for a few simple reasons. Basic income is pretty much money that will get spent, stimulating economic activity. I don't see it being as high as

[Perky1106]

Loved the whirlwind of the Labour landslide in 1997, did not like New Labour!

 

Believe firmly in the NHS and The Welfare State (to be used as a safety net and not a way of life) and that certain services should be nationalized (power, water, the postal service possibly the railways).

 

I voted for 'Red Ed' Milliband to become leader of the party and am slightly disappointed, but maybe he's biding his time.

 

 

 

 

 

Keep the Red Flag flying here

 

You a member of the party as well?

[Perky1106]

 The most socialist parties would in my book propose the smallest basic income amount as they will still want to throw endless amounts of money at unnecessary government spending instead of reassigning this to basic income. Also capitalists would love this for a few simple reasons. Basic income is pretty much money that will get spent, stimulating economic activity. I don't see it being as high as

[RebelScum]

You a member of the party as well?

 

Yeh, have been since I was 15. Don't always agree with things Labour do, very nearly cancelled my membership in 2010 but then realized that I had to keep the fight going. I suppose its basically the party that reflects my ideals.

[eddie]

Disagreeing with me is cool RMACML, I don't claim to be right or even intelligent, I drive lorry's for a living, I read some of the stuff Eddie, for example posts and think bloody hell, I wish I knew stuff like that, I bet he's had a good career.

 

 

 

Bloody long, I know that.

 

An old colleague of mine who went by the name of Jake Tingstadt said two things to me about 40 years ago that had a great influence on who I am, what I do and how I think.

 

The first, and most important point (to me anyway), was simply this - if you don't wake up in the morning and think "Great, I'm going to work", then change your job because you are in the wrong one.

 

The second point he made was "A high IQ symbolises only one thing - it is the quantifiable measure of how good you are at intelligence tests. On its own it means absolutely nothing".

 

Driving lorries, delivering mail or emptying the bins don't make you a better or a worse person. The most staggeringly clever and well-read (as opposed to just 'intelligent' - but I think he was that too) person I ever met was a fellow Derby fan from Matlock, I think - a guy by the name of Arthur Palfreyman. I think he was a milkman (perhaps he just told me that for a laugh and he was really a nuclear physicist).

 

As for me - I get paid to play (some might call it writing and developing software, but to me it's just a game). The languages change, but the basic programming methodologies I employ haven't changed in 40 years and probably never will.

[Perky1106]

Yeh, have been since I was 15. Don't always agree with things Labour do, very nearly cancelled my membership in 2010 but then realized that I had to keep the fight going. I suppose its basically the party that reflects my ideals.

 

I have stayed a member for similar reasons. Keep fighting the good fight. Labour may have done some unforgivable things but they are still the strongest and biggest force of the left. Historically nasty governments succeed because the left has become divided. It's how the Nazis got in because Hitler and Goebbels divided the rival parties. The coalition (basically Tories) got in because the progressive vote was split between Labour and the Lib Dems.

[uttoxram75]

I have stayed a member for similar reasons. Keep fighting the good fight. Labour may have done some unforgivable things but they are still the strongest and biggest force of the left. Historically nasty governments succeed because the left has become divided. It's how the Nazis got in because Hitler and Goebbels divided the rival parties. The coalition (basically Tories) got in because the progressive vote was split between Labour and the Lib Dems.

I've always voted Labour and was a member briefly at one point but the last few years of the Blair/Brown government made me want to give up all hope and join the survival of the fittest mob.

 

Thousands of unnecessary deaths at my local hospital (Stafford) due to it being run as a business , by a Labour government. It destroyed my hope of a better way than mindless, greed driven privatisation.

 

I will vote Labour again purely because the alternative is horrific, but i just wish Ed would stand up before the next election and tell the world that the next Labour government will reverse all the NHS sell offs and return this country's finest achievement to the people who paid for it.

 

The Tory press will crucify Milliband whatever happens, whatever he does and says - it would be far better to take them on in a straight fight over keeping the NHS under public ownership.

[Perky1106]

I've always voted Labour and was a member briefly at one point but the last few years of the Blair/Brown government made me want to give up all hope and join the survival of the fittest mob.

 

Thousands of unnecessary deaths at my local hospital (Stafford) due to it being run as a business , by a Labour government. It destroyed my hope of a better way than mindless, greed driven privatisation.

 

I will vote Labour again purely because the alternative is horrific, but i just wish Ed would stand up before the next election and tell the world that the next Labour government will reverse all the NHS sell offs and return this country's finest achievement to the people who paid for it.

 

The Tory press will crucify Milliband whatever happens, whatever he does and says - it would be far better to take them on in a straight fight over keeping the NHS under public ownership.

 

Agreed. He needs to commit to the left fully and not water anything down.

 

Andy Burnham has promised to reverse the NHS cuts and privatisation reforms.

[RLACML]

Someone earlier said that Siliband had excellent policies, can you please tell me them?

[Mafiabob]

Someone earlier said that Siliband had excellent policies, can you please tell me them?

Think if you used his real name instead you might get a proper constructed debate out of a few people.....

[RLACML]

Think if you used his real name instead you might get a proper constructed debate out of a few people.....

Wait wait wait, that's not his real name?

[Mafiabob]

Wait wait wait, that's not his real name?

Don't mind having a joke at all, just when you have already pre set your position on him will turn possibly a decent debate into a farce.... And no I'm not his biggest fan either. I believe most politicians of today of all ilks have no principles.... Just a lust for power and go weak at the knees of the press.

So it was nice to see Baroness Warsi go on a principle last week, but as ever the right never let us down in condemning it as grandstanding etc.

The left can be just as bad too.

[RLACML]

Don't mind having a joke at all, just when you have already pre set your position on him will turn possibly a decent debate into a farce.... And no I'm not his biggest fan either. I believe most politicians of today of all ilks have no principles.... Just a lust for power and go weak at the knees of the press.

So it was nice to see Baroness Warsi go on a principle last week, but as ever the right never let us down in condemning it as grandstanding etc.

The left can be just as bad too.

It's not that I don't think he has no principles, I just think he has the wrong principles. I understand the pressure to be a pragmatist and I'm not generally criticising that.

You're right, I do have a pre-set position on him, but I don't think that stops the debate. The reason I asked an open ended question was because I've got a few main policies in my mind (that I think are ludicrous) and I was hoping someone would address those without me actually mentioning what they were.

On Warsi - I disagree with her reasons and her action.

[Mafiabob]

It's not that I don't think he has no principles, I just think he has the wrong principles. I understand the pressure to be a pragmatist and I'm not generally criticising that.

You're right, I do have a pre-set position on him, but I don't think that stops the debate. The reason I asked an open ended question was because I've got a few main policies in my mind (that I think are ludicrous) and I was hoping someone would address those without me actually mentioning what they were.

On Warsi - I disagree with her reasons and her action.

That's fair enough, It's just the name thing reminds me of press or those in political circles would use.... I frequently read Uk polling report and the comment section is rather good, very good debate and non partisan.... Most of the time. Good read if you never frequented it before.

[Uptherams]

That's fair enough, It's just the name thing reminds me of press or those in political circles would use.... I frequently read Uk polling report and the comment section is rather good, very good debate and non partisan.... Most of the time. Good read if you never frequented it before.

Do you want to tell him the policies then? Or do you just want to circumnavigate again? All I see from them is rhetoric. Things people want to hear but then no solutions. Or what could be described as deceptive hyperbole's. Rah, rah, rah. Cost of living crisis. Here is

[Mafiabob]

Do you want to tell him the policies then? Or do you just want to circumnavigate again? All I see from them is rhetoric. Things people want to hear but then no solutions. Or what could be described as deceptive hyperbole's. Rah, rah, rah. Cost of living crisis. Here is

[Uptherams]

Where have is aid I was voting labour this time? I've been inclined in the past that may be, but you've jumped the gun a bit....

I could go on all day about faults of the left and right, and also the good bits, but I'm not blinded by rhetoric of party activists and the press telling how bad one person is or the other. Like I say no principles anymore. Just empty rhetoric, that includes UKIP

Where did I say you were? I jumped no gun. I mean you still have not delved into a debate have you. That is what you were insinuating you wanted. I am just trying to come to grips with how people can support Labour currently above all others when they have nothing on offer. There hasn't been any substance to what they are saying. They had basically no opinion at the EU elections. I expect the same for the general next year. More cost of living crisis talk. Nothing else and lies about what other parties will do. 

[Mafiabob]

Where did I say you were? I jumped no gun. I mean you still have not delved into a debate have you. That is what you were insinuating you wanted. I am just trying to come to grips with how people can support Labour currently above all others when they have nothing on offer. There hasn't been any substance to what they are saying. They had basically no opinion at the EU elections. I expect the same for the general next year. More cost of living crisis talk. Nothing else and lies about what other parties will do.

If your saying they will have no policies for next year than I think your having a giraffe.

I can't answer for Labour policies, or the lack of them as you say.

But the cost of living crisis is real. You telling me people can afford to put food on the table? Have you seen how many people are relying on food banks? Zero hour contracts are another thing I've got a gripe with, I work somewhere that uses them, I see people panicking and pleading to work on a day to day basis on minimum wage to work the next day.... Employment has dropped I concede that, but it's part time hours for people.

The biggest problem I've got personally is the benefits system and the tax system.

There's people abusing the benefits system no doubt. And I have nothing but disdain for them, a hand up should be the case.

Also I believe there's many at the top who don't pay there share of tax.The masses are in the middle.

All I'm asking for is principled politicians to vote for, whatever the party. An not be afraid of the press.

Finally on your point about how can people vote for Labour.... The polls suggest they are still certainly comfortable with them. However many faults they may have.

I imagine a couple of the lads on here who are Labour Party members could debate more with you. You are way more politically than me, I'm afraid I will discuss things in layman terms.

I could say the same of how can people vote for Tories... Or LIb Dems.... All tribal with some

[IlsonDerby]

It's not that I don't think he has no principles, I just think he has the wrong principles. I understand the pressure to be a pragmatist and I'm not generally criticising that.

You're right, I do have a pre-set position on him, but I don't think that stops the debate. The reason I asked an open ended question was because I've got a few main policies in my mind (that I think are ludicrous) and I was hoping someone would address those without me actually mentioning what they were.

On Warsi - I disagree with her reasons and her action.

 

Out of interest why did you disagree with her reasons and resignation? 

 

I'm disgusted that our government has not condemned the genocide happening in Gaza and am sick of people justifying Israel acting in this manner because "they had it rough in the past". What they're doing is worse than what Russia are doing around Crimea. It is ridiculous that it is allowed to happen. Israel have an excellent secret service and military that are fully capable of moving into Gaza and removing the Hamas terrorists, tactically, rather than raining missiles down onto hospitals and schools full of children. I have nothing but respect for Baroness Warsi who has put her career on the line by standing for what she believes in (and I'm labour through and through). 

 

I think when we live in a world where people have to be told that killing children is wrong then any hope for humanity is lost. 

 

Finally the media in this country are a disgrace, they are so anti Labour; reporting the local elections as "poor result for Labour" because they didn't gain as many as expected as opposed to Lib Dem and Tory who both lost high amounts. Then reporting the Gaza crisis as "Israel retaliating" when it is far, far more than a retaliation. Hamas are using the equivalent of Mentos and Coca Cola bottles... 

[RLACML]

Out of interest why did you disagree with her reasons and resignation? 

 

I'm disgusted that our government has not condemned the genocide happening in Gaza and am sick of people justifying Israel acting in this manner because "they had it rough in the past". What they're doing is worse than what Russia are doing around Crimea. It is ridiculous that it is allowed to happen. Israel have an excellent secret service and military that are fully capable of moving into Gaza and removing the Hamas terrorists, tactically, rather than raining missiles down onto hospitals and schools full of children. I have nothing but respect for Baroness Warsi who has put her career on the line by standing for what she believes in (and I'm labour through and through). 

 

I think when we live in a world where people have to be told that killing children is wrong then any hope for humanity is lost. 

 

Finally the media in this country are a disgrace, they are so anti Labour; reporting the local elections as "poor result for Labour" because they didn't gain as many as expected as opposed to Lib Dem and Tory who both lost high amounts. Then reporting the Gaza crisis as "Israel retaliating" when it is far, far more than a retaliation. Hamas are using the equivalent of Mentos and Coca Cola bottles...

Try the Middle East thread, I'm not derailing another thread with a long winded argument.