Alph

Does this mean we won't be friends? On a serious note though. I explained that I was annoyed with how dismissive you are. That's it. Comments like "Land Grab" and "won't be the land of milk and honey" rubbed me the wrong way. I try to bring it back to reasonable debate and you won't engage. I don't mind but let it go or engage. Don't keep mentioning me unless you will engage with the reasonable posts to you and Crewton

@Leeds Ramwhat is it about this post that's distorted or dishonest? Those are actual things said by Israeli politicians etc. The terms "land grab" and "disputed land".... Come on. You know what goes on in West Bank amounts to more than a land grab and you know that Netenyahu and Co name those lands with ancient names. You know how many people are killed and displaced and exactly what the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, HRW, Save The Children say. Like I said, there's a fair amount in here I agree with. But there's some I don't. And I've not been unreasonable explaining them. If you want a little door slamming moment as you reach for the moral high ground then that's fine. But as I said, don't cry that I can't have a conversation where here I've said nothing unreasonable. Except perhaps mocking your dismissive condescending attitude towards me. I just found it a bit funny.

So you can't reply to my reasonable response but you can talk about me? Talk to me or if not then don't speak about me. What I did was try to bring the debate back to reasonable with Crewton. Now you have a problem with that too? Get on with it or get over it.

"What I've certainly NEVER said is that innocent Palestinians deserve what Israel are doing to them" - I didn't say you did? I said you are always speaking up for Israel and not for Palestinians in the context of the entire conflict. If I was to add too much "context" to violence against Israel then you would feel equally angry? "Sometimes you come across as more balanced in your outlook, but many of your posts have, in my view, come across as rambling hate-filled rants" - I don't mean to sound that way. I did say this earlier. So I can only apologise. I get triggered by some specific comments here about crisis actors, disputed land, implications of being antisemetic, the playing down of Israel's role. "To paraphrase Mickey Flanagan, I was out, but now I'm out out." - I mean I tried to explain my position and emotions. I'm not claiming that everything I say in the heat of the moment is helpful. I do take things on board. But this is a passionate topic. I'm asking for balance and in return trying to be more balanced. This is the second time you've said this and the second time I've tried to find common ground and show that I'm not blinded by my bias and believe both sides have so much work to do. But you didn't attempt to meet me there before and won't now. I understand walking away from someone who has an extreme entrenched view. I don't believe I'm so blind to Iran, Hamas, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Houthi etc etc that I can't accept fault in the Palestinians.

Why? You're another that criticises my bias and says I'm not worthy of replying to because of my beliefs (which I laid out for you and you ignored) But in the defence of Palestinians I've only seen you say something about Netenyahu being bad for peace? You've added context for Jews. You've added context for Israel's right to be fearful and skeptical of their neighbours. But what have you said on behalf of the suffering and struggling of Palestinians? You've rightly exposed Iran, Syria etc for supporting groups to attack Israel. But you've not really condemned America or The West for encouraging Israel. You've said Israel is the most democratic liberal state in the region. But again, this is only half the story. I've seen the videos from October 7th. They are very very nasty. Things that aren't human. Truly vile and if there is a heaven/hell then all those who took part in that slaughter should burn forever. But there are some crimes that Israel claimed that have no evidence. Some omissions about what else happened that day. You chose to post an 'independent' (it wasn't) reliable (it isn't) link to proof. Now on light of many of the lies exposed do you understand why that would appear to be spreading propaganda. Or as I've been accused of "fueling the fire". What Hamas did was evil. See in this thread, despite my bias I'm not afraid of talking about the suffering of Jews. I'm not afraid of admitting the threats Israel have faced, still face and will continue to face. Hamas are bad for peace. I hate Hamas. My problem comes that to find common ground Israel has to be called out. It's not a democracy for all its people. There are terrorist attacks on Palestinians. There's Islamophobia. There's war crimes. There's breaches of International Law. It's not just naughty Netenyahu. Why do we not speak of what ulterior motives America may have? I understand @PistoldPetefear that hatred of Israel could spread. That saying things like they hide behind antisemetism could encourage more of the Jewish suffering we've seen. I get it. But, there's no balance if we can't speak against Israel. If we can't use the same language for the crimes of both. If people can't say Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. I fully expect some flippant comment about this thread being a cesspit, full of nonsense or somebody say they're not replying etc etc. You said I'm not capable of having a conversation? I am. But first, just like you, I have to feel like I'm talking to someone who can begin to understand my position. If somebody is just going to tell me this is liberal, democratic state Vs Terrorists in disputed land then I'm going to rant. I don't want to defend Hamas. I want them gone. But are we going to understand why they're able to recruit so many Palestinians? Are we going to talk about how to remove them? No. We're just going to present them as villains and continue this tit for tat. Good Vs Evil. I'm not as blinded by bias as I'm accused of. I'm really not. But for years and years this conflict has been presented a specific way to the West. After enduring all the American propaganda and destabilising policy I just want Palestinian voices to be heard.

Thank you for taking the time to reply one last time. I'm truly humbled. There's a fair amount I agree with. However there's some offensive stuff. Palestine would not be the land of milk and honey that some imagine. - Who imagines? I'm pretty sure people are aware of the challenges involved? I mean supporting a Palestinians State doesn't equate to being stupid. Israel is not the land of milk and honey for Palestinians either. Because it's an Apartheid state. It has separate laws for parts of its society. The closing comment. "How likely is this to occur".... What? A Palestinian State? Extremely unlikely. What we have is Israel with it's foot on Palestine's throat asking them to stop struggling. What happens if they stop? What happens if Israel take their foot off? Neither can be trusted but nobody is interested in finding a solution. There's a $500b prize pot for America and Netenyahu's oil/peace corridor. For Palestinians will always be pushed by the likes of Iran. I've said this dozens of times. Then you say America should not focus on a vain attempt to destroy a terrorist organisation. They're not. They absolutely are not. Nobody thinks this is how you destroy Hamas. Hamas is an ideology. Hamas could be reborn 10 times over. So let's not pretend that Israel and America don't know this. So let's cut those lies out and stop pretending America or Israel are stupid. You said Hamas aren't smart? Well neither are Israel or America if they truly believe what they're saying. Which is why I point to the consistent genocidal language used by Israeli politicians and right wing officials. Because that tells you in their own words that they're not there for Hamas. Let them disease spread it will make help the victory? We must remember Amalek? I'm proud to be a fascist. There are no innocent people in Gaza? The Friendship 2023 song? Send them to Egypt or Scotland? Burn Gaza to the ground? Human Animals? They have to exaggerate and lie about Hamas actions (which I don't really have a problem with) to justify their actions. My problem comes when the IDF/settler behaviour in the West Bank is referred to as "land grab" over "disputed land". I don't know why I bothered replying. I forgot you said that was the last time.

You got me. I'll try to care less. 🤣 There's is no nuanced discussion until Palestinians are considered equal to Israelis. Until Islamophobia is as criminal as Antisemitism. Until the IDF are held to the same standards as Hamas. Until we stop claiming "democracy" has some moral high ground when Israel isn't a democracy for all its population. Until we examine the things said by the Israeli government that definitely have genocidal tones. Until we can hear what all experts are actually saying instead of discrediting the ones we don't want to hear. Even if their point is valid. Whether it be Pappe or Gideon Levy. Historian or journalist. Your condescending tone annoyed me. Your support of American foreign policy. The most destabilising nation in my opinion. From WMD lies, Gulf Of Tonkin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki... Their world policing has an ulterior motive. There's plenty of experts who will say worse about them. I'm totally comfortable with you ignoring me or whatever you said. So add not mentioning me to that if you want Oh and your article. "The state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia... Would give terrorists more freedom. " that was offensive. Palestinians have a right to national security. You're dismissive of all ME politics. It's The West way for you. And you'll justify it however it's enforced

I mean what am I supposed to do with this? Talk about the Hannibal Directive? Post videos from witnesses that say IDF open fire on their own people? Post videos of IDF shooting unarmed people? It's not productive. It's not relevant. I'm not here defending Hamas. I just said that Israel won't get rid of them and that it's more likely they'll gain more support. That's just the truth.

Stop. This logic applied all over the world would break down all borders and national security. It's nonsense. It really is nonsense. You're going down a route in which nations can reclaim colonies? You know you're talking about people who have no part in fighting? People living in these areas, raising families, working... Just normal people? Like you, your son, daughter, Mum, Dad, Aunties, Uncles... Nothing to do with any dispute. Who lose their homes and loved ones. Are displaced. And your saying well technically 2,000 years ago.... Get real. Get out with that Zionist nonsense. Talking about that Amalek next with Netenyahu. I don't give a feck who "owns" Jerusalem. My agenda is peace and equality for Palestinians. You think I'm suggesting Jews don't have a right to exist there? No. But you seem to be saying that all the Palestinians (not Hamas, not militant, not combatant) that get their homes taken from them is fine because it's disputed land. So feck what the UN, ICJ, Human Rights, Amnesty Int all say. You've got the bible and a Map from 2,000 years ago. You know not even a great many Israelis think like this don't you? You do know that? Like there's a left wing in Israel politics that argues against this exact sort of mentality? You talk about wanting peace but it's this exact sort of thing that creates more death. It's this Zionist s**** and Arabs who say every single part of Israel was given to Jews by the British when it wasn't there's to give. If you look at Hamas actual goals it's the destruction of Israel. But not the expulsion of all Jews. They say Jews of that land can stay but all others must go. Now this is a ridiculous goal and would lead to Genocide. Finding peace is about rejecting the extremes of both sides and respecting the borders and treaties we have. We need a state where Arab Muslims and Jews have equal rights (no, that's not the current Israel) or we draw a line and tell Israel to feck off with their claims. If the ICJ say 80% of your wall or whatever is illegal. It's illegal. If the UN draw up resolutions then you respect them. Show up to hearings. Don't veto peace. And we work towards a 2 state solution. Have you seen the Hamas flags flying in West Bank over the weekend? That's what Israel have achieved since October 7th. They. Can't. Wipe. Hamas. Out. Like. This.

Only just saw the Taylor fight. Jesus, I'm not against women's boxing but there's something about brutal scraps like that where I feel a bit squeamish. Weird. But whatever they got paid it should be more. What a brawl Taylor is great. Really likable, hard as nails and just great for boxing.

Anyone here buying the Israel friendship song 2023? It's in this video if you'd like the music video "In a year we will annihilate everyone " la la la la. Sing along guys.

That's the "peace corridor" speech. Where he said Iran needs to face a nuclear threat, Palestine doesn't exist and they share a border with the good Muslims.

Gutted.

True. Which is a starting point of a us finding common ground. There always needs to be balance. But there never is. Israel is always playing the victim. Always protected. Nobody here is completely blind to Israeli/Jew suffering.

Bore off with strawman arguments. Hamas lead state... Oh, if it's not experts your respected circles or the language used by Israeli officials when they talk about there being "NO innocent Palestinians" is not genocidal or Hitler level for you then that's enough. End of. Feck the experts that argue differently in Haaretz columns. Until they get the respect of you or your peers then they have no validity. These Arabs just won't accept our values. We've bombed them, invaded them, stolen from them... but they just won't accept our democracy. All they have to do is look at Israel and see the black Jews, the Arab citizens etc. They'll see the equal rights. But no. They live in their caves plotting ways to destroy the west when all we ever do is help them export their natural resources. If only they'd look at how we helped Africa. Bloody crying about "land grab". It's only land. Disputed land. And we'll remove that gas for them too. All part of our democracy service. Fed up of Amnesty, Human Rights, ICJ, UN etc keep criticising. Antisemitic organisations. They have no LeedsRam verified experts, that's their problem

See, you can see from your post history in this thread and in the Ukraine thread referencing Trump/Afghanistan to get a good idea of what you think is an acceptable treatment of those Arab Muslim nations. Never once have I seen you speak on behalf of them. You'll justify drone strikes in Afghanistan, war in Iraq, you said (ref Israel) "the land grab is a problem"..... You discredit Finklestein, Pappe... I'm guessing Haaretz journalists are clueless, Raz Segal and any other expert or opinion you don't like. You say Palestine would probably be a terrorist breeding ground and Iran would probably be... Israel is not equal to all its citizens but it's a democracy so therefore it's much better than Jordan and whatever it does you can't possibly condemn. Hamas aren't smart at all. See, despite my bias I've never wavered from my position on Hamas. I've called them out exactly for what they are. But you managed "land grab".... It's terrorism. It's terrorism on Palestinians. We're looking at up to 15,000 dead. Babies dying because theres no power. Lack of evidence and terrible fake propaganda attempts to cover their tracks. Have you been oblivious to the things they actually say in that government? Really? It's Hitler level I can say Israel has a right to defend itself. When it's actually defending. You could never say that about Palestinians. You could never imagine an Israel so aggressive that a group like Hamas should grow in numbers because Palestinians would rather die on the spot than be displaced. You've been outed. Go sit with Genocide Joe and tell him there's $500b pot of gold for the winner. Let's pretend he doesn't know and America aren't the most destabilising country on the globe.

This is the guy that said something along the lines of a free state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia many imagine and would give terrorists more room to operate. That's what he thinks of Palestinians. And it's beautifully ironic that the democratic state of Israel (which isn't so democratic if your not the right type of citizen) is a state that breaches international law, murders Palestinians taking their homes, refuses to sign off on human rights laws/Rome Statute, ignores the International Criminal Court demands, doesn't show up to UN hearings on their military operations, holds Palestinians prisoners without charge.... The Arabs should just stop moaning and accept it's for the best. They're so uncivilised.

You pick and choose the experts I've noticed.

And I posted a link which explains clearly why their democracy has several flaws in what makes a democracy. You don't think Hamas are smart? You think they live in caves shooting AK's at the ceiling shouting "death to the west" Israel are smart though? Hence some of the most hilariously bad propaganda and blatant genocidal talk to go along with their decision to give up so much military advantage to go into urban combat. You said @Comrade 86was confusing a wartime response with whether a state is democratic or not. Is it possible October 7th was a response To the 150 dead Palestinians up to July? Did you know about those? How many children died in Palestine before October 7th? Do you know? Stop watching Hollywood films if you actually believe terrorists are just mindless murderers.(unless sponsored by America obvs) Hamas share a lot in common with the very smart and presentable Netenyahu. Amalekite? Sorry I meant, am I right?

It's ok. He's in good company. President Isaac Herzog stated: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true. They could’ve risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime.” “We will eliminate everything — they will regret it,” said Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. “our focus is on (creating) damage, not on precision. There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons.” Moshe Feiglin, a former prominent Likud Knesset member. Former Justice Minister Gideon Sa’ar stated that the Gaza Strip “must be smaller at the end of the war … Whoever starts a war against Israel must lose territory.” Nissim Vaturi, the deputy Knesset speaker, threatened: “Nakba? Expel them all. If the Egyptians care so much for them — they are welcome to have them wrapped in cellophane tied with a green ribbon.” There's more about Amalek and the benefits of Cholera and typhoid rife in Gaza. Obviously Sky News etc has exposed these right wing lunatics in the "Israel-Hamas War" coverage.

What's Itamar Ben-Gvar saying? https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/

Shameless violently ruthless cowardly terrorist.... you're describing IDF? I have an open invite to West Bank that I've not taken up. You can be my +1 and tell the Palestinians there how brave, courageous and noble the law abiding IDF are. I'm suggesting Hamas are smart. Not good. Being the most liberal democratic state is not a free pass to do whatever they like to other people. Including the Muslim Arabs in Israel that are not equal. And the African Jews. https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

Just a happy coincidence then. Lucky Hamas. I did say they don't care about Palestinian lives didn't I. Not like Israel. The liberal democratic state and great hope of the middle east