SillyBilly Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Another bailout is forthcoming if the Greek parliament manages to push the bill through despite the protestations of the people. Should they be allowed to default? I'm fully aware of what the implications to the eurozone would be if Greece don't adopt the measures put forward but I'm increasingly becoming concerned at how France and Germany are essentially being allowed to dictate terms to the rest of us. With each and every bailout comes greater union with a failing currency setting a precedent for future bailouts that tie us in even further to the Euro to recoup our losses. France and Germany are pulling us in deeper and deeper and I can only see it getting worse and worse. The PIGS (and Italy) Currency- Euros IMF data Owed to France Italy- 309 bn Portugal- 19.1 bn Ireland- 23.8 bn Greece- 41.4 bn Spain- 112 bn Total- 505.3 bn Owed to Germany Italy- 120 bn Portugal- 26.6 bn Ireland- 82 bn Greece- 15.9 bn Spain- 131.7 bn Total- 376.2 bn Owed to UK Italy- 54.7 bn Portugal- 18.9 bn Ireland- 104.5 bn Greece- 9.4 bn Spain- 74.9 bn Total- 262.4 bn Bearing in mind the majority of our debt is based in Ireland (they're a large trading partner and the bailout was vital to our interests imo) which seems to finally be heading towards stability then you can see how dangerous it is that we spend more money bailing out the others when we're unsure how sustainable the model actually is. Merkosy is crapping it with how much debt they are exposed to and it seems we're being dragged along for the ride imo. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Ireland isn't out of the woods yet, a week ago they downgraded their growth forecast for the next quater. A controlled default is the only way to really solve Greece. The ECB has been pumping in money and the EFSF is a backstop which can be used. The default however has to be carefully managed, if it is uncontrolled you will soon see portugal, spain and maybe Italy go the same way. Greece has lost a generation due to these savage cuts, many young people are emigrating and with the oncoming austerity package the people will be desimated. The I.M.F said there is to much focus on fiscal austerity and that austerity in itself won't solve anything, this is exactly what is going to happen to Greece, to me austerity like this is a bit like cauterising a wound, it rarely works and in the end it just hurts. If the bailout goes ahead in Greece and they stay in the euro the political parties will be lambasted and that will open the way for far right and the far left communist parties which isn't a good thing. They have already cut a lot of the debt out and a default if properly controlled could be the miricle Greece needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Ireland isn't out of the woods yet, a week ago they downgraded their growth forecast for the next quater. A controlled default is the only way to really solve Greece. The ECB has been pumping in money and the EFSF is a backstop which can be used. The default however has to be carefully managed, if it is uncontrolled you will soon see portugal, spain and maybe Italy go the same way. Greece has lost a generation due to these savage cuts, many young people are emigrating and with the oncoming austerity package the people will be desimated. The I.M.F said there is to much focus on fiscal austerity and that austerity in itself won't solve anything, this is exactly what is going to happen to Greece, to me austerity like this is a bit like cauterising a wound, it rarely works and in the end it just hurts. If the bailout goes ahead in Greece and they stay in the euro the political parties will be lambasted and that will open the way for far right and the far left communist parties which isn't a good thing. They have already cut a lot of the debt out and a default if properly controlled could be the miricle Greece needs. So, we should allow Greece to default and leave the Euro? And Ireland isn't out of the woods but I believed the package at the time and the terms attached to it was the right thing for the British taxpayer, I still feel that now. Whilst every economy is different and size needs to be accounted for, it is interesting to see how Iceland have bounced back after its people decided to default. Strong growth and the country on the up again. My point being is this decision is not for the benefit of the Greeks, it is for the benefit of the players who are exposed to the Greek debt (unfortunately that includes us). Greece has been reduced to a puppet state and its leaders seem to bow to the pressure put on them. I simply want to know whether people support continued bailouts of struggling countries with our money and whether you're comfortable in stabilising a currency which is manipulated by France and Germany as a political tool (again imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 no doubt the bailout was the right thing to do in Ireland. I agree with all your points silly, I can't not because it is simply the truth. I would only support a bailout if it could do long term good for the country and the Greek ones simply won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The bailout of Greece is wrong, morally and economically. Its not gonna work, the greeks have had enough. They have 19% unemployment and the bailout demands they sack thousands more. Germany and France (with our support) are using this to control governments and force their narrow minded austerity plan on to the EU while protecting their own interests. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 unemployment is now up to 20% suicide rates have gone from one of the lowest in europe to one of the highest and 1/3rd of people are in poverty. I believe a controlled default silly is the only realistic way out, at this rate everyone is going to lose. No-one will get their money back and the Greeks will be plunged into more recession, more cuts into a country that is already on the brink of social and financial collapse. The Greeks need to leave for their own good, while it will be difficult for them at the moment I can't see another realistic viable option for them. The far left and far right parties will gain support and wreak havoc when the elections are held in April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Ram Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The bailout of Greece is wrong, morally and economically. Its not gonna work, the greeks have had enough. They have 19% unemployment and the bailout demands they sack thousands more. Germany and France (with our support) are using this to control governments and force their narrow minded austerity plan on to the EU while protecting their own interests. . I would hardly say it's with our support, indeed our governments stance was opposed to the continued bailouts and more ECB control, Funny how things are going full circle! The fundamental flaw in all this is the poor taxation systems for raising revenue in both Greece and Italy. Let's not kid ourselves that this is the last bailout, what terms will be demanded then I wonder? Let the Greeks default and let's get rid of a single currency that will not work due to differing government policies. A Northern Europe Euro may work, but only invite stable economies and not those who manipulated figures to gain entry in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Some US finance guru stated that the only way to stop this recession would to reset the entire system, ie wipe out all of the debt across the world and start from scratch. He stated that there should only be 5 currencies and that would ensure that recesions would be a thing of the past. The only snag is that a lot of very rich people, on paper, would become very poor. Personally I think this will happen, not in the immediate future, but in the next 20-30 years, as the current global economic model is basically eating itself to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Ram Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Just on the bonds front this year, this is what some key nations will be requiring: Italy 428bn Euro France 367bn Euro Germany 285bn Euro The worry is the smaller economies that are uner the radar at this time because of Greece and Italy's woes. Some nations, such as Greece, had their GDP's and other key financials manipulated by auditors so they could gain entry, all this is now very well documented. The sale of the Greek national lottery being one example of last minute suggestions to satisfy the entry requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Ram Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Try this link, it gives a full breakdown of the major nations debt. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/12/Goldman%20Redemption Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralRam Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So glad we got the conservatives in when we did. Our debt is unsustainable. Labour would just keep trying to buy themselves out of trouble and thus creating much bigger debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Gr, that isn't technically true. If you look at Darlings plan it was working, it created 3.4% growth in 2011 I think, which is more than under this coalition. The debt quadroupled when we bailed out the banks which we had to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So glad we got the conservatives in when we did. Our debt is unsustainable. Labour would just keep trying to buy themselves out of trouble and thus creating much bigger debt. Wait till you have a true two tier healthcare system like the states.....you won't be thanking the tory tossers then....how ironic that as we move towards the inevitable death of the NHS under the Eton debating society... the Americans are at last addressing they're unfair system through Obama's reforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So glad we got the conservatives in when we did. Our debt is unsustainable. Labour would just keep trying to buy themselves out of trouble and thus creating much bigger debt. They are the same that awarded the rail contract to Siemens, who are currupt, and was lobbied by a senior siemens exec who has a tory MP set up in an office at siemens. The same bunch that have taken the military to the same level as a toothless chicken, cutting charity payments, causing nursing homes to close when the fastest growing demographic is the elderly, restricted Nurses and Doctors by introducing more red tape, gives one of the richest economies in the world £1b and they snumb it, have to beg to go on military exercise with USA, have cut off talks with Argentina, though Labour had spent years behind closed doors trying to sort it, caused the riots, allowed the Murdoch empire to ruin football, never worked a proper job in their lives. And that is all in the last week, well mostly. Imagine the damage they will do with another 3 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perky1106 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The rating agency Standard & Poor's came out recently saying that austerity doesn't work. It was the reason why they downgraded the credit rating of France as well as six other EU states, because they had imposed austerity measures that has caused their economy to shrink. Imposing a technocratic government on Greece that will cut their services is morally and economically wrong. My heart goes out to the Greek people and if I lived there I'd be out rioting with them. Oh well. Merkozy 1-0 Democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Many economists say austerity doesn't work, in fact, they say the opposite is true. Provide a kick start for the bottom of society and growth will happen. Trickle down capitalism doesn't work. Concentrate resources on job creation and public services and the economy will grow from the bottom upwards. The only problem with that is its not great for the get rich quick brigade. Its better for the country as a whole though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Drachma and Mythos are more appealing to the British tourist than Euro and Mythos so for that reason alone we should allow them a default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralRam Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Instead of doing all this quantitive easing and giving the money to the banks, we should split it equally with everyone 18 and above under the one condition that debts have to be repaid. Anything left over is yours to keep. Would stop most debt problems and get people spending again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Instead of doing all this quantitive easing and giving the money to the banks, we should split it equally with everyone 18 and above under the one condition that debts have to be repaid. Anything left over is yours to keep. Would stop most debt problems and get people spending again. Read something about that idea a few years ago, they reckon that the rich would have it all back within 2 years even if they only had the same amount to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perky1106 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 They should cut the income tax rate of earners under £15,000 p/a by 2.5%. Low earners spend all they have so that tax cut would help the retail industry, as well as local shops/businesses. Raising the VAT rate was just crazy though, and is the source of a lot of the problems in the retail industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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