PeteDerby Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I do feel though he likes to throw in the line he knows lots of people in the game and they agree with me. You've caught me out - I'm making it all up because I'm trying to impress you. In truth, I don't know 'lots of people in the game', but I know a few. Naturally, the talk swings round to football and, naturally with me being a Rams fan, our club gets discussed. I do get that it's all about opinions - I said as much in the post you responded to. But there's such thing as an informed opinion and, of course, footballers know more about the professional game than fans - and managers know more about managing than players. Why do I come on here? well, for the same reason you do - I'm a Derby fan. I'm not in any way blinkered to Clough so I wish people who want Clough out would stop saying that those who support his continued appointment think he's the second coming. To me, and others, maintaining the status quo just makes sense right now. As for Sturrock, a league two side with nothing like the weight of expectancy on their shoulders is about a million miles away from Clough's situation at Derby, so if that's your best example of someone you think would do a better job than NC, then , well, further debate on that subject is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 You need to take your 'Clough hate' blinkers off mate. There's nothing being built under GSE and, what's more, until there is you simply can't judge whether Clough is good bad or indifferent. People don't hate Clough....they just want Derby to do well. I'm hoping that Nigel has learned the lesson of his crass attack on Cywka. He seems to have changed his manner since then. Now he seems less aggressive, more positive, more professional. Maybe we can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Tell me which of these 'other managers' have had to sell all of their best players and cut the wage bill by half and I might start to listen to that argument a bit more seriously? This is Clough's team, of a fashion, albeit one cobbled together with loans, crocks, unproven maybe players and over-the-hill twighlighers - all because of the NEGATIVE resources GSE have provided. That's right - his dealings have given GSE more than they've given him to try and improve things. This is all against a backdrop where the owners came in setting the fans' expectation of establishing DCFC permanently in the top flight, hence the frustration people like you express because it's not happening. You need to take your 'Clough hate' blinkers off mate. There's nothing being built under GSE and, what's more, until there is you simply can't judge whether Clough is good bad or indifferent. What I do know is that another Championship manager told me two weeks ago that, big as DCFC is, the manager's job is a poisoned challice at the moment and that no proven manager in his right mind would take over from Clough in the current circumstances. OK, so that's just another opinion, but I know who's opinion I would trust more, and it ain't the Clough haters! Totally agree with you, Pete. I happen to think Clough has done a good job at Derby. I believe he has done wonders to merely keep them ticking over in this league under his circumstances. Yes, he has made mistakes and he has been big enough to admit to them. We will never find a more committed man than Nigel and the board rightly realise that. Let's just hope they recognise his achievements and throw a little more of the green stuff in his direction in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 We'll get to the end of the season and then see where we are. If we finish in a poor position it will be difficult for Nigel and GSE to maintain the myth of slow burn, small steps towards progress. He'll have a big decision to make re Fielding v Bywater He'll have to replace Anderson, Savage, Bueno, Leacock, Porter and Roberts. He'll have to make up his mind who his dream striker is...is it Ward or Robinson or Waghorn or Beattie or Miller or Hayes or who? Come on Nigel you've had 2 years to think about it. He'll have to decide what formation we're playing. He'll have to get some flair into midfield - be prepared to back down over Cywka - and maybe admit he's made a mistake if Ben Davies morphs into Eddie Lewis. He's got alot of work to do. And this is probably his last pre-season to get it right and show some substantial progress.....and that doesn't mean more loans. That flying football in October could well turn out to be a millstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsilks Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 We'll get to the end of the season and then see where we are. If we finish in a poor position it will be difficult for Nigel and GSE to maintain the myth of slow burn, small steps towards progress. He'll have a big decision to make re Fielding v Bywater He'll have to replace Anderson, Savage, Bueno, Leacock, Porter and Roberts. He'll have to make up his mind who his dream striker is...is it Ward or Robinson or Waghorn or Beattie or Miller or Hayes or who? Come on Nigel you've had 2 years to think about it. He'll have to decide what formation we're playing. He'll have to get some flair into midfield - be prepared to back down over Cywka - and maybe admit he's made a mistake if Ben Davies morphs into Eddie Lewis. He's got alot of work to do. And this is probably his last pre-season to get it right and show some substantial progress.....and that doesn't mean more loans. That flying football in October could well turn out to be a millstone. His probable last pre-season? What tosh. Clough is here to stay at Derby for the long term. Do you really think Clough is happy with his squad of players? Do you really think they are his first choice players? He has had to bring in loans. You talk of substantial progress. NO manager in the land could make any kind of progress with the amount Clough has had to deal with. Progress is staying in the league at the moment. We may not like that but while we are in the current ownership, there is nothing Clough or we the fans can do about it aside from staying away from the ground and voting with our feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 His probable last pre-season? What tosh. Clough is here to stay at Derby for the long term. Do you really think Clough is happy with his squad of players? Do you really think they are his first choice players? He has had to bring in loans. You talk of substantial progress. NO manager in the land could make any kind of progress with the amount Clough has had to deal with. Progress is staying in the league at the moment. We may not like that but while we are in the current ownership, there is nothing Clough or we the fans can do about it aside from staying away from the ground and voting with our feet. He'll be in the last year of his contract. He knows the rules now. If he can't deliver the modest sustainable progress - that he himself talks about - within the current GSE framework then he might decide its time to go. A few signings like Brayford and Bailey and he'll be ok. More squad fodder and another season of struggle and he could crack under the pressure again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 As for Sturrock, a league two side with nothing like the weight of expectancy on their shoulders is about a million miles away from Clough's situation at Derby, so if that's your best example of someone you think would do a better job than NC, then , well, further debate on that subject is pointless. I never said I thought Sturrock could do better here but you asked about another manager having to put up with anything like Nigel. Well starting with 2 players, no money and getting near the play-offs is making a better go of a worse situation. Plus if someone managing well at Southend is a laughable example of someone working well with limited funds due to the level their at, that the expectation and quality of where they're managing is a million miles away and therefore he shouldn't be considered, then just remind me where we picked Nigel up from. Look I'm not saying I want Sturrock here but people bleat on about the situation like it's unique, like other clubs are spending away but not us, poor Nigel. When that's simply not the case. He hasn't had a lot of money but that doesn't mean he can't be judged on what he's done, that's all that fans are doing. Some judge him well, others don't. I imagine a few more wouldn't come out with "he's learning, he'll be a great manager" if he wasn't Clough. If this was Paul Ince in charge and had made the comments Nigel has made or the team selections and tactics I would say there would be a lot less support for a different young manager learning. Oh and Pete if you wish that people would stop saying that your blinkered or think that Nigel is the 2nd coming, then maybe don't say people who haven't rated his time so far are "blinkered" or "anti-Clough" or "Clough haters". Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 We'll get to the end of the season and then see where we are. If we finish in a poor position it will be difficult for Nigel and GSE to maintain the myth of slow burn, small steps towards progress. He'll have a big decision to make re Fielding v Bywater He'll have to replace Anderson, Savage, Bueno, Leacock, Porter and Roberts. He'll have to make up his mind who his dream striker is...is it Ward or Robinson or Waghorn or Beattie or Miller or Hayes or who? Come on Nigel you've had 2 years to think about it. He'll have to decide what formation we're playing. He'll have to get some flair into midfield - be prepared to back down over Cywka - and maybe admit he's made a mistake if Ben Davies morphs into Eddie Lewis. He's got alot of work to do. And this is probably his last pre-season to get it right and show some substantial progress.....and that doesn't mean more loans. That flying football in October could well turn out to be a millstone. I've realised that there's something of a common thread between those supporters who constantly criticise Clough; you really really don't understand that every move he makes in terms of the quality of the squad is dictated by the limitations of his budget. Do you really, honestly think that Clough would CHOOSE to fk Commons off and replace him with some lower-league low-mark in Ben Davies? Do you really think, given the choice, he'd be bringing in serial failures like Ward or Robinson? Your "you've had two years to think about it" just highlights how little you seem to grasp. If Clough did read internet forums, his response would likely be 'not a very bright football fan'. I'm not saying all the points you make regarding the decisions he has to make aren't correct, just you failure to grasp that the questionable players, the chopping and changing of tactics, are all symptoms of a manager desparately trying to cobble a winning formation against a background of negative equity and owners who don't give a **** about anything other than their money. No matter how many times people present this argument, you all ignore it and carry on manager-bashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 As for Sturrock, a league two side with nothing like the weight of expectancy on their shoulders is about a million miles away from Clough's situation at Derby, so if that's your best example of someone you think would do a better job than NC, then , well, further debate on that subject is pointless. I never said I thought Sturrock could do better here but you asked about another manager having to put up with anything like Nigel. Well starting with 2 players, no money and getting near the play-offs is making a better go of a worse situation. Plus if someone managing well at Southend is a laughable example of someone working well with limited funds due to the level their at, that the expectation and quality of where they're managing is a million miles away and therefore he shouldn't be considered, then just remind me where we picked Nigel up from. Look I'm not saying I want Sturrock here but people bleat on about the situation like it's unique, like other clubs are spending away but not us, poor Nigel. When that's simply not the case. He hasn't had a lot of money but that doesn't mean he can't be judged on what he's done, that's all that fans are doing. Some judge him well, others don't. I imagine a few more wouldn't come out with "he's learning, he'll be a great manager" if he wasn't Clough. If this was Paul Ince in charge and had made the comments Nigel has made or the team selections and tactics I would say there would be a lot less support for a different young manager learning. Oh and Pete if you wish that people would stop saying that your blinkered or think that Nigel is the 2nd coming, then maybe don't say people who haven't rated his time so far are "blinkered" or "anti-Clough" or "Clough haters". Just a thought. Sorry, one example, two leagues lower against no backdrop of high expectancy reveals a very weak argument that there are 'all those other mamagers working in Clough's situation; or however you worded it. If people refuse to acknowlegde the reasons behind the managerial performance and short-circuit their thinking to 'cr@p manager', then 'blinkered' is a polite way of describing you, surely. I am saying Clough might me good, or he might be *****, but given the mittigating circumstances you just don't know for sure. One thing you do know is that he unites the majority of fans through a difficult season and has given a glimpse of the type of football he wants us to play with the right players at his disposal. Given the empiracle evidence that clubs who chop and change managers have less success over time than those who change less frequently. And given the empiracle evidence that clubs with no investment rarely do anything than go backwards, I think the sensible people back carrying on with Clough until GSE go or spend some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I never mentioned Sturrock at all. You talk about wage limititions and I dont know but do we have one of the lowest wage bills in the division? The club (if you believe them) have implied that many of the sides above us and a few in the play offs have a lower wage bill than ours. So again we are guessing who are the high earners left, Sav, Pearson, Green, Bywater and leacock? Who gave 3 of them new contracts? Clearly there are limitations on budget, we are not punching where we should be in the market at all. Why do you keep praising clough for cuttting the wage bill when most where just realised on frees or paid off when they were surplus to requirments anyway? Who are the good players he wanted to keep really? I would say Hulse and commons were the only ones he would have kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I've realised that there's something of a common thread between those supporters who constantly criticise Clough; you really really don't understand that every move he makes in terms of the quality of the squad is dictated by the limitations of his budget. Do you really, honestly think that Clough would CHOOSE to fk Commons off and replace him with some lower-league low-mark in Ben Davies? Do you really think, given the choice, he'd be bringing in serial failures like Ward or Robinson? Your "you've had two years to think about it" just highlights how little you seem to grasp. If Clough did read internet forums, his response would likely be 'not a very bright football fan'. I'm not saying all the points you make regarding the decisions he has to make aren't correct, just you failure to grasp that the questionable players, the chopping and changing of tactics, are all symptoms of a manager desparately trying to cobble a winning formation against a background of negative equity and owners who don't give a **** about anything other than their money. No matter how many times people present this argument, you all ignore it and carry on manager-bashing. I dot generally disagree with this. I'm sure he would have wanted to lose Commons (not sure who else he would have wanted to keep, he seemed to rate Porter above Hulse). But I'm sure a lot of our signings would be different with more money. Then I'm sure Moyes would be signing different players if he had a billionaire owner at Everton, or any other mid table Prem team. I'm sure 90% of the Championship clubs would sign different players if they had more money. Base it on value for money instead, I still think Nigel has just about got more players in that are value for money than not. Saying he'd buy differently with more money is just saying what just about every manager would do. Is Davies value for money? Not is he better than Commons or would we have kept Commons, just is he value for money. He's not shown it yet but it's far too early to tell, he's a player who's come in to a struggling team who were searching for a win and some confidence. And stop with he 'constantly criticise' it's the same as people saying 'constantly defend' people aren't critising everything he does, they just feel that he is does some things wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sorry, one example, two leagues lower against no backdrop of high expectancy reveals a very weak argument that there are 'all those other mamagers working in Clough's situation; or however you worded it. If people refuse to acknowlegde the reasons behind the managerial performance and short-circuit their thinking to 'cr@p manager', then 'blinkered' is a polite way of describing you, surely. I am saying Clough might me good, or he might be *****, but given the mittigating circumstances you just don't know for sure. One thing you do know is that he unites the majority of fans through a difficult season and has given a glimpse of the type of football he wants us to play with the right players at his disposal. Given the empiracle evidence that clubs who chop and change managers have less success over time than those who change less frequently. And given the empiracle evidence that clubs with no investment rarely do anything than go backwards, I think the sensible people back carrying on with Clough until GSE go or spend some money. I've never said that Nigel is a 'cr@p manager' I'm just not sure he's right for us right now and I'm not going to ignore everything he does and dismiss it with 'it's all down to money' or 'he's young and learning'. The money is a massive mitigating circumstance, no doubt about it but I'm not a believer that it covers all sins. You are, he can pick anyone and put them anywhere and finances would be used to defend it. He can say anything and do anything and it's defended and money is seen as the root. It's not, it's a massive problem but it's not the only problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I've never said that Nigel is a 'cr@p manager' I'm just not sure he's right for us right now and I'm not going to ignore everything he does and dismiss it with 'it's all down to money' or 'he's young and learning'. The money is a massive mitigating circumstance, no doubt about it but I'm not a believer that it covers all sins. You are, he can pick anyone and put them anywhere and finances would be used to defend it. He can say anything and do anything and it's defended and money is seen as the root. It's not, it's a massive problem but it's not the only problem. I'm not disagreeing with you there WilkoRam and maybe you're misunderstanding me. I don't think Clough is anywhere near perfect. I'm just saying that until the root cause is fixed we're better off sticking with what we've got. Once he's gone he's gone, and with him the last chance to unite the fan base for long enough to build something with sound foundations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Nigel's done ok so far - not great, but not too badly. Money is a mitigating factor, but not solely - he has to shoulder a considerable amount of responsibility for issues such as poor man management and tactics, which are down to him regardless of how much he has or hasn't had to spend, and what I believe to be a poor scouting network. An inspirational manager might have got us into the play offs, a lousy manager might have us where Sheff Utd are, so I think Nigel's about half way in between. He's done some good things, and some poor things; he's signed some good players, and some poor ones. He's made good decisions, and poor ones. He is neither cr@p, as some here would believe, or a messiah in waiting if only he had money to spend, as others think. If the budget is going to remain as it is, I'm not sure Nigel will improve us, so it might be time to give someone else a go. But then, how stupid will I feel if they do and the next man is Micky Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I'm not disagreeing with you there WilkoRam and maybe you're misunderstanding me. I don't think Clough is anywhere near perfect. I'm just saying that until the root cause is fixed we're better off sticking with what we've got. Once he's gone he's gone, and with him the last chance to unite the fan base for long enough to build something with sound foundations. I think the fan base would be united more by winning games than a name to be honest. It worked for a while but then results end up meaning more than sentiment. I don't disagree that with the root problem fixed then everythig else becomes clearer but then what chance is there of a board change? I'd love to hear PG was back in charge and money available, but if that's not going to happen do with stick with two parts that don't work well toether (by that I don't mean the working relationship more Nigel working with the rubbish financial backing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Teale Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Part of the problem I have with Clough is his negitive persona and the way we just keep end up sitting two banks of 4 deep behind the ball and lumping it forward. If some of us could see a long term plan in what he is trying to achieve ie a style of play that is half decent or even a system then I think some of us would be more hopefull of his leadership. At Burton he always had his teams playing with width and wingers, that was his trademark. Here he seems to be trying something new every season and when it doesnt work reverts to the negitive style we are currently playing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 id still sack him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Part of the problem I have with Clough is his negitive persona and the way we just keep end up sitting two banks of 4 deep behind the ball and lumping it forward. If some of us could see a long term plan in what he is trying to achieve ie a style of play that is half decent or even a system then I think some of us would be more hopefull of his leadership. At Burton he always had his teams playing with width and wingers, that was his trademark. Here he seems to be trying something new every season and when it doesnt work reverts to the negitive style we are currently playing Could place that at not being able to get in good enough wingers to play that system and therefore having to try a new system. My issue is that we had a system, but Nigel hit the panic button and went back to what he knew without the players to play it effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Part of the problem I have with Clough is his negitive persona and the way we just keep end up sitting two banks of 4 deep behind the ball and lumping it forward. If some of us could see a long term plan in what he is trying to achieve ie a style of play that is half decent or even a system then I think some of us would be more hopefull of his leadership. At Burton he always had his teams playing with width and wingers, that was his trademark. Here he seems to be trying something new every season and when it doesnt work reverts to the negitive style we are currently playing We haven't played like that all season. We just need to battle for a bit, then start playing football when the confidence is up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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