Armchair Managers

[WilkoRam]

We were 19th after 27 games last season. So by that simple reasoning if we finish 14th or below then we're not progressing? We were 2 points from 19th (a place below were we finished the season before). We also only got 2 points more than the season before. 2 points more over a course of a season, either more or less, is hardly sign of progression or going backwards. We finished similar points on both seasons. Hence why I don't see the progression.

Yes the wage bill is down but as BritVegas said most of those were overpaid players who any manager would have got shot of.

I maintain that on the pitch we've not progressed.

[WilkoRam]

I would disagree with anyone that thinks nobody could do a better job. There are so many variables, I am sure many other managers might do a better job, and I am sure the same applies to every managerial position in the country. The problem is, we have done that a dozen(?) times in the last 15 years or so and how many times have we improved the situation WITHOUT changing the investment level?

There comes a time when every manager's day is done and they need to retire or get the sack but that decision should be made by the manager's employers who are best positioned to make it and, hopefully, do so based on facts rather than political convenience.

I don't disagree with you there mate. We have changed our manager too much, I'm simply saying that both camps (if it's really come to that) state their opinions as fact in terms of if he should stay or go.

Investment isn't always the answer either. How much did we spend on the team of Johnson, Gabbiadini, Kitson, Williams, Short, etc and lost in the play-off final in comparison to how much we (relatively) spent under Billy Davis?

Something haas to change for us to move forward, I'm not saying I know what that is. Maybe it's one or the other, maybe it's both but I'm feeling more and more that it can't be neither.

[Toadbelly]

The teams confidence is rock bottom and that is cloughs job to turn it round.A win in the cup against crawley would have helped but they even managed to lose that. He has played people out of position,he has got rid of a half decent strike force and left us with a half arsed one.He didnt attempt to keep Frank Fielding here or Kuqi.Results and performances have plummeted since the two went back to their respective clubs.His substitutions are sometimes non existant or baffling.

I am also against his "jobs for the boys" clique that is at the club.

Firstly, your avatar looks like my uncle...he's also a miserable git...wait a minute????

Ok. Confidence appears to be low, as you would expect after 9 losses in 12. I am sure the management team are aware of it and are trying to rectify the situation. You would have to ask the players if they feel a new manager would help. You and I have no idea.

We lost to Cawley in dire conditions at Crawley. These things happen all the time. Division One leeds beating Man U springs to mind. Disappointing but hardly worthy of a sacking.

Played out of position...why? Who knows. I am sure he has his reasons.

We are weak in attack and again, I am sure Nigel wants to fix this. Top quality strikers are expensive and even if we had the money, attracting them to Pride park could be problematic.

How do you know that we did not try to keep Kuqi or Fielding? I agree that it would have been great if we had and that their leaving coincides with our slump. I am equally positive that Clough has noticed this also but that something prevented him form retaining their services. Their respective clubs, injuries, inabality to agree on a deal, etc. You cannot simply assume that Clough is so inept as to simply not notice their impact on the team.

Substitutions are a judgement call and easy to critique in hindsight. I thought both substitutions on Saturday were good ones. It must be difficult to replace your captain and your star player but credit where credit is due. They were bothn having terrible games and Clough replaced them.

Your clique theory implies a working knowledge of the club's day-to-day management and personnel. If you have such knowledge then I would defer to it. If not, and you are simply referring to the fact that Clough likes to work with people he is familiar with and obviously trusts, then this is hardly unusual in football.

[Alex W]

Firstly, your avatar looks like my uncle...he's also a miserable git...wait a minute????

Ok. Confidence appears to be low, as you would expect after 9 losses in 12. I am sure the management team are aware of it and are trying to rectify the situation. You would have to ask the players if they feel a new manager would help. You and I have no idea.

We lost to Cawley in dire conditions at Crawley. These things happen all the time. Division One leeds beating Man U springs to mind. Disappointing but hardly worthy of a sacking.

Played out of position...why? Who knows. I am sure he has his reasons.

We are weak in attack and again, I am sure Nigel wants to fix this. Top quality strikers are expensive and even if we had the money, attracting them to Pride park could be problematic.

How do you know that we did not try to keep Kuqi or Fielding? I agree that it would have been great if we had and that their leaving coincides with our slump. I am equally positive that Clough has noticed this also but that something prevented him form retaining their services. Their respective clubs, injuries, inabality to agree on a deal, etc. You cannot simply assume that Clough is so inept as to simply not notice their impact on the team.

Substitutions are a judgement call and easy to critique in hindsight. I thought both substitutions on Saturday were good ones. It must be difficult to replace your captain and your star player but credit where credit is due. They were bothn having terrible games and Clough replaced them.

Your clique theory implies a working knowledge of the club's day-to-day management and personnel. If you have such knowledge then I would defer to it. If not, and you are simply referring to the fact that Clough likes to work with people he is familiar with and obviously trusts, then this is hardly unusual in football.

I agree with what you're saying, but in both of those cases Clough let them go.

Fielding he said wouldn't be getting the first team football he would want, and so went back.

Kuqi wasn't wanted as we had Porter coming back.

[WilkoRam]

Firstly, your avatar looks like my uncle...he's also a miserable git...wait a minute????

Ok. Confidence appears to be low, as you would expect after 9 losses in 12. I am sure the management team are aware of it and are trying to rectify the situation. You would have to ask the players if they feel a new manager would help. You and I have no idea.

We lost to Cawley in dire conditions at Crawley. These things happen all the time. Division One leeds beating Man U springs to mind. Disappointing but hardly worthy of a sacking.

Played out of position...why? Who knows. I am sure he has his reasons.

We are weak in attack and again, I am sure Nigel wants to fix this. Top quality strikers are expensive and even if we had the money, attracting them to Pride park could be problematic.

How do you know that we did not try to keep Kuqi or Fielding? I agree that it would have been great if we had and that their leaving coincides with our slump. I am equally positive that Clough has noticed this also but that something prevented him form retaining their services. Their respective clubs, injuries, inabality to agree on a deal, etc. You cannot simply assume that Clough is so inept as to simply not notice their impact on the team.

Substitutions are a judgement call and easy to critique in hindsight. I thought both substitutions on Saturday were good ones. It must be difficult to replace your captain and your star player but credit where credit is due. They were bothn having terrible games and Clough replaced them.

Your clique theory implies a working knowledge of the club's day-to-day management and personnel. If you have such knowledge then I would defer to it. If not, and you are simply referring to the fact that Clough likes to work with people he is familiar with and obviously trusts, then this is hardly unusual in football.

There's a bit of 'I'm sure he has his reasons', 'I'm sure he realises', etc in there. As you say we don't know so we can't be sure of anything. We can say what we see and hear, and as Alex said, it was his choice re Kuqi and Fielding. We don't know what money Nigel has, who he's identified, what he thinks the team needs, who he see's as good players and who he see's in need of replacing.

[Toadbelly]

I agree with what you're saying, but in both of those cases Clough let them go.

Fielding he said wouldn't be getting the first team football he would want, and so went back.

Kuqi wasn't wanted as we had Porter coming back.

I know what you are saying but there has to be more to it in both cases and who knows if Clough was giving the straight goods?

With Fielding, even if NC feels Fielding is a better keeper than Bywater, he could hardly keep Bywater out of the team with a short-term loanee (Bywater is a decent keeper and would probably ask to be transfer listed) and realistically, what chance would he have of signing him on a permanent in the current financial reality?

As for Kuqi, there could be many other reasons why we did not keep him. He has had a lot of clubs and you have to wonder why. Apart from him not being a long-term prospect, perhaps he disrupts the dressing room, makes unrealistic demands, is not a tream player....who knows? Nigel Clough does.

I am just theorizing by the way. It may simply have been bad decision making on NC's part.

[rigamortis]

We were 19th after 27 games last season. So by that simple reasoning if we finish 14th or below then we're not progressing? We were 2 points from 19th (a place below were we finished the season before). We also only got 2 points more than the season before. 2 points more over a course of a season, either more or less, is hardly sign of progression or going backwards. We finished similar points on both seasons. Hence why I don't see the progression.

Yes the wage bill is down but as BritVegas said most of those were overpaid players who any manager would have got shot of.

I maintain that on the pitch we've not progressed.

Wilko - I'll start the reply in a daft way - as neither you or anyone else needs agreement of others to post.

Having said that - I always read your posts and treat them with respect -even if you're pointing out potential negatives - you do it in the right way.

it's also pretty clear that you're thought process is built on valid reasons/concerns and doesn't change from game to game or minute to minute...

Now that's out of the way :-)

If you don't measure progress by league points and/or league position, how do you measure it? it's the only way - in a results business.

I beleive 14th was the highest finish for a number of years aside from promotion/relegation seasons?

If you're a footballer who's played at any level - do you not look at how you did last season against how you're doing this, how many points, how many wins, what position in the table you were at this stage, if you're a defender or a goalie you look at clean sheets, if you're a striker it's goals and if you're a midfielder maybe you look at assists... if you're injured you look at number of appearances - if you made 3 last season and 20 this - it's progress. No getting away from it. if you had 50 points last season and finish with 53 the season after - it's progress - no getting away from it..

I have more of an issue with those who are measuring based on finger in the air thinking...no basis for it - just opinion.

His old man was once asked by Revie how he could improve on what he'd done at leeds - his reply I'm sure you know - was to "win it better" to only lose 3 games instead of 4 over a season. That would still have been progress - even for the league champions...

Of course if we finish lower than last season then all are entitled to say he has not taken us forward - even if it's 15th (unless we get more points - if you catch my drift).

It's probably not a surprise that I'm with toad on this one.

As for confidence being shot (whilst in no way taking away responsibility for this poor run) neither the young lads or the experienced ones are "allowed" to go through a bad patch.

You only need to look on here to see the potential reaction from fans when the team sets out to get a point to stop the rot... the young lads need to be allowed to grow - need to be allowed to make mistakes and to learn from it - I'm not sure that's going to happen when you're sitting in mid table and polls are going up after the end of every game suggesting that the manager is clueless.

Whils I'm not suggesting he's god mark II - I am suggesting and agreeing with toad that he is no-where near the numpty some of the posters on here are making out.

I bolded the other bit - it's not his fault he was lumbered with those players - it's not his fault two managers before him signed a bag of *****..and apparently didn't give a flying about how it may leave the state of the club. Why should they? they're off in two years with a moan that they couldnt spend even more.... I can imagine it's not as easy as you think to "get rid" of players who are under contract.

[Dambuster]

There's a bit of 'I'm sure he has his reasons', 'I'm sure he realises', etc in there. As you say we don't know so we can't be sure of anything. We can say what we see and hear, and as Alex said, it was his choice re Kuqi and Fielding. We don't know what money Nigel has, who he's identified, what he thinks the team needs, who he see's as good players and who he see's in need of replacing.

Regarding Kuqi & Fielding it seems to me there was a bit of over hyping their contribution, both did ok but Kuqi was never going to reproduce that energy every week at Championship level at his age.

What he did do was to illustrate the type of striker we need asap.

Would have liked to see him play more of the games while he was here though.

Fielding does look a good keeper although lacking a bit of height by modern goalkeeping standards he looks to have a personality which will give confidence to his defenders however I thought there were at least 3 goals against he should have done better with.

Having said all that I would still be pleased to see him here permanently if the fee was reasonable.

I also thought Bywater should have got to Earnshaw's goal ? it was 19 - 20 yards out with a clear view and not that hard.

[WilkoRam]

I agree that progress is judged on the end of season points and position compared to the season before. I personally feel that the margin between the 08-09 season and the 09-10 season was negligible so much so that I don't see it as proof of progression.

If there was 6 points difference or more then yeah I would agree but 2 points is the difference between winning 1 game instead of drawing it, hardly a turn around in fortunes that indicates progress. Now if we had similar points total in the 09-10 season as we did in the 08-09 season but played better I would again see that as progress but in large the football was awful last season so again I don't see the progress.

Being a season a change I put it down to changing personnel etc and give the management team the benefit of the doubt (that's big of me - I don't mean it arrogantly just mean it as a fan). So this season I wanted to see progression in terms of style of play and/or a greater significance in points/league position. I thought we'd cracked it around October but then it's gone backwards again and I don't anticipate that we will finish much differently in terms of league and points to last season but we had just over a month of good football, and prior to that signs we were trying to play good football. The sign of whether Nigel is right for the job or not will be if we can show signs of that again rather than if we finish on 57 points this season rather than 56.

I do agree that a bit of cash will help. A striker and some more pace in the side is a must but it's not the only reason for us staying where we are.

[Dangerous]

I agree with what you're saying, but in both of those cases Clough let them go.

Fielding he said wouldn't be getting the first team football he would want, and so went back.

Kuqi wasn't wanted as we had Porter coming back.

A decent manager would have realised Fielding is better than bywater and Kuqi is miles better than porter and endeavoured to keep them longer.

[Alex W]

A decent manager would have realised Fielding is better than bywater and Kuqi is miles better than porter and endeavoured to keep them longer.

He rates Bywater, and would have liked to have kept Fielding but he said he couldn't keep two number one goalkeepers at the club. So he let Fielding go so that he could get first team experience somewhere else.

Kuqi is not miles better than Porter. If each player had the perfect day, I think Porter would have the better game. Porter looked better than Hulse when he was on form and fit.

[Dangerous]

He rates Bywater, and would have liked to have kept Fielding but he said he couldn't keep two number one goalkeepers at the club. So he let Fielding go so that he could get first team experience somewhere else.

Kuqi is not miles better than Porter. If each player had the perfect day, I think Porter would have the better game. Porter looked better than Hulse when he was on form and fit.

We would have had competition for a place.Bywater has none now as deeney is not a threat (but is cheap).I dont know what you see in Porter.As for him looking better than Hulse....bizarre.

[Toadbelly]

We would have had competition for a place.Bywater has none now as deeney is not a threat (but is cheap).I dont know what you see in Porter.As for him looking better than Hulse....bizarre.

Not sure I agree with Aled that Porter is better than Hulse who I always rated highly but there is no doubt that a fit Porter is a far better player than he is given credit for by many fans.

However, I think Alex is spot on with regards to Fielding and Kuqi. Kuqi highlighted our need for a player of his type but he was hardly the answer himself. It would be interesting to see if Addison could do the same job but Clough would get slated if he ever tried And besides, we need Miles in the heart of the team where he can boss the game. Captain next year I hope.

[Alex W]

We would have had competition for a place.Bywater has none now as deeney is not a threat (but is cheap).I dont know what you see in Porter.As for him looking better than Hulse....bizarre.

I remember seeing him against Swansea when he scored two goals, and I remember saying "If he keeps this up, Hulse won't get back in the side!" to a friend who had come along with me.

I rate Hulse very highly, he's absoloutely lethal at this level, but Porter when fully fit is a very good striker. Give him time to get himself sorted again and we'll see the best of him again. He just needs time.

[WilkoRam]

Are you basing the 'better than Hulse' on one game? He's never, even when fit, shown me anything to suggest he's better than Hulse or even a 20+ goal scorer in this league.

[Alex W]

Are you basing the 'better than Hulse' on one game? He's never, even when fit, shown me anything to suggest he's better than Hulse or even a 20+ goal scorer in this league.

I'm not saying he's better than Hulse all round, what i'm saying is that I think when on fully fit and playing decent all season he could be a very good replacement for him.

He is dangerous and had more pace before his injury. When he's fully fit again and on form, I think he'll prove to be a good spearhead for our side.

[Dangerous]

Are you basing the 'better than Hulse' on one game? He's never, even when fit, shown me anything to suggest he's better than Hulse or even a 20+ goal scorer in this league.

he has never done anything to suggest to me he is better than Hulse,Varney,DJ Campbell or Kuqi

[WilkoRam]

I'm not saying he's better than Hulse all round, what i'm saying is that I think when on fully fit and playing decent all season he could be a very good replacement for him.

He is dangerous and had more pace before his injury. When he's fully fit again and on form, I think he'll prove to be a good spearhead for our side.

I beg to differ, I suppose time will tell on this one. I see him lacking pace, strength and any power in his shots.

[Alex W]

I beg to differ, I spouse time will tell on this one. I see him lacking pace, strength and any power in his shots.

He had strength and some pace, his hip injury and amount of time out has left both not as prevelant as they once were. He will get both back with time. Didn't he hold off the Preston centre backs for his first against Preston? They're hardly weak players.

Lack of power in his shots is an odd thing to say, perhaps he just prefers to place his shots? He's an accurate finisher (last weekend not helping my point but he is generally one of the best at the club).

[Fowkesy]

In response to the original question.I can't give an answer to it! I am not directly a member of the Clough out brigade but I never wanted him in!!After supporting the club for 60 years and a season ticket holder for 30 I was appalled at the lack of ambition shown by Nigel's appointment and swore I wouldn't renew my season ticket.I didn't. I still do the 220 mile round trip for the odd game so I haven't given up completely and if we showed the ambition I believe we lack,I would love to get a season ticket back.I'm old enough to realise that my £250 doesn't make any difference but it is a matter of opinion.The signings made have shown the same lack of ambition.Buy a good league 2 player and he might develop into something by playing with good players,buy a bunch of league 2 players and you'll end up with a team of league two quality.Let's face it Motherwell aren't exactly high quality either.Just take a look at the better quality loan signings Tonge,Moore,Fielding and even Kuqui they did and would have made a difference.Once again no ambition to keep one or any of them,or certainly not enough effort anyway apparently.

I hope he/they prove me wrong,but I'm too old to hold my breath;)