Armchair Managers

[Toadbelly]

I am unashamedly part of the 'Clough In' brigade, mostly because we need stability and because other people more knowledgable than me think he is the right man for the job.

I accept that I have no knowledge of football management and that whatever I think I know, Nigel Clough, the players, the backroom staff, and even that american chap, Tom Glick know a hell of a lot more. Even if I did have some experience of football management I know nothing about the injury situation, about players' personal lives and influences, about the day-to-day finances, about our our opposition each week, about tactics in general or specific to our team, about player interractions, or morale.

If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up there anti-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen. Until then, I will deem your squawkings no more meaningful or inciteful than those of barnyard chickens.

[ramorama]

I am with you but even we have to agree some of his team selections have been odd to, I am sure he knows his players better then us but I can see the anti Clough brigade arguement already

[Toadbelly]

I am with you but even we have to agree some of his team selections have been odd to, I am sure he knows his players better then us but I can see the anti Clough brigade arguement already

NC has been a pofessional football manager for 15 years. Before that he was a very successful professional footballer who worked for one of the most successful management partnerships in history. He was raised by one half of this partnership.

Each week, he and his management team (also very experienced and knowledgable) select the players for the upcoming match based on their collective experience and all of the data they have available to them.

However odd some of these selections may appear, it would be extremely naive not to assume their must be reasons for them.

[ramorama]

Again I am with you but I do think Brayfords confidence is rock bottom and that must be partly from playing CB with an out of form and unfit Barker. Barks was superb saturday though and Brayford was steadier without doing anything too much

[Bris Vegas]

Not saying Clough is a terrible manager, nor am I saying I want him out.. But here are some crucial mistakes that he has made. IMO of course (I'm not football manager, I'd love a crack though)

He has chopped and changed a winning team. Other than the big clubs Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal etc. where they have a squad of 25 quality players and can get away with it this is ridiculous..

Every good team has a settled back 5.. How many combinations have we had this year as a back 5? Have we actually stuck to the same back 5 for more than 4 games running?

Moving our best attacking RB to CB.. He's not even great at CB, and we missed his attacking game at RB.. In a 4-2-3-1 your fullbacks provide width, so having Green and Roberts there on occasions was just not going to work..

Moving the guy with the most assists in our team to RB (Green) where he's not likely to have any affect on the game..

Partnering 2 DM who can't pass for toffee in the position where they recieve the ball the most..(Sav and Addison) And then wonder why passes went astray or the defence decided to hoof it.. Bailey is our best passer of the ball, so playing in him the attacking 3 or putting him on the bench.. Ameture mistake.

Without going over old grounds about a winning team, dropping Kuqi in favour of Moore. Moore probably is the better finisher granted, but theres more than just goalscoring as a lone striker.. When you have 3 AM aswell they also provide a huge goal threat. Kuqi was the best all round striker we've had this year, he ran channels, he bullied/hassled defenders into mistakes, he was decent in the air and not too bad on the deck.. Didier Drogba played the lone striker in Mourinhos Chelsea and scored 10 goals in each of his first 2 seasons..Hardly prolific.. But he did everything I just said Kuqi does but obviously 10x better.

Clough blasts players in public after playing them out of position.. Openly criticises his players.. Name one good thing that can come from this? What other decent manager today does this?

Does he seem to be learning from his mistakes? Not really. He played our best defence against Forest in their correct positions, however the Sav/Addison partnership was a mistake.. We looked so much better with Bailey on the pitch..

Also he doesn't need $5mill to go out and buy quality players.. Good managers have good scouting networks. He needs a good scouting squad.. Burley got Rasiak, Bisgaard and Idiakez for free.. Steve Coppell for Reading bought in Doyle (80k) Kitson (200k) Sonko, Ingimmarsson and Hunt came from Brentford.. Sidwell and Harper from Arsenal reserves.. Long from Ireland. They spent less than $1.5mill to assemble a squad capable of breaking record points.. Swansea have never paid more than $1mill for a player yet have some cracking players and look good for promotion. Norwich aswell..

I hate the arguement that NC needed to lower the wage bill etc.. and he's doing great under the circumstances.. Good god aside from Hulse who would you have kept? Seriously? Teale, Claude Davis, Tito Villa, Albrechson etc.. We're all sh*te players on huge wages that any new manager would have got rid of.. Clough has had money to replace these players, but unfortunately for him, some of his signings IMO have been sh*te aswell.. Porter, Croft, Martin, Anderson etc.

I am only an armchair fan therefore my opinion to some will be complete utter nonsense.. I want Clough to stay until the end of the season, lets face it we'll be playing Championship football next season.. But if he hasn't learned his obvious mistakes by the end of the season and I see no real improvement (playing wise) then I'll want him out.

[Jayram]

I am unashamedly part of the 'Clough In' brigade, mostly because we need stability and because other people more knowledgable than me think he is the right man for the job.

I accept that I have no knowledge of football management and that whatever I think I know, Nigel Clough, the players, the backroom staff, and even that american chap, Tom Glick know a hell of a lot more. Even if I did have some experience of football management I know nothing about the injury situation, about players' personal lives and influences, about the day-to-day finances, about our our opposition each week, about tactics in general or specific to our team, about player interractions, or morale.

If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up there anti-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen. Until then, I will deem your squawkings no more meaningful or inciteful than those of barnyard chickens.

You pompous twit. This is a forum and forum's are places for opinion and discussion, for and against. 9 defeats in the last 12 matches is the evidence some would point to to back up their position but frankly, most of them couldn't give a monkeys how you 'deem' their 'squawkings'.

[WilkoRam]

.

If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up there anti-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen. Until then, I will deem your squawkings no more meaningful or inciteful than those of barnyard chickens.

I don't see the point of changing Nigel now, he has until the end of the season and if we show signs that we will play good football again then maybe he should get a 3rd season.

However couldn't ani-clough (as you call them) just simply ask the same in response? I.E.

"If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up their pro-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen."

I think both sides need to accept certain facts.

1) we are not the biggest spenders and this has no doubt restricted players coming in - I'm sure Nigel would love a permanent quick striker for example

2) Nigel isn't perfect, he has made mistakes and will do in the future

People get bogged down on which side of the fence they should be rather than saying just looking objectively and seeing that there can be a middle ground.

[Toadbelly]

Not saying Clough is a terrible manager, nor am I saying I want him out.. But here are some crucial mistakes that he has made. IMO of course (I'm not football manager, I'd love a crack though)...

Well said. And I am not going to argue the fact that there have been some apparently odd decisions made with regards to selection, player management, and tactics. However, I still believe that without an intimate day-to-day knowledge of the squad, it is hard to second-guess these decisions. They may well be poor but they are based on a vastly greater pool of information that that which we, the fans, are privy to.

I think fans should question these decisions and search for explainations but to call for a manager's head without first gaining some understanding is silly.

As for Bailey vs Sav, I agree, but to be fair to NC, Sav is the team captain (As an armchair manager, I would make Addison captain ) and he did replace him with Bailey to great affect 8 minutes into the second half. Sav will not be with us next year so will be interesting to see what happens then.

[Ambitious]

I don't see the point of changing Nigel now, he has until the end of the season and if we show signs that we will play good football again then maybe he should get a 3rd season.

However couldn't ani-clough (as you call them) just simply ask the same in response? I.E.

"If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up their pro-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen."

I think both sides need to accept certain facts.

1) we are not the biggest spenders and this has no doubt restricted players coming in - I'm sure Nigel would love a permanent quick striker for example

2) Nigel isn't perfect, he has made mistakes and will do in the future

People get bogged down on which side of the fence they should be rather than saying just looking objectively and seeing that there can be a middle ground.

We are in a better position than we was last season, currently (still)

and

We've maintained an improvement despite the squad getting hammered with reductions.

[Toadbelly]

You pompous twit. This is a forum and forum's are places for opinion and discussion, for and against. 9 defeats in the last 12 matches is the evidence some would point to to back up their position but frankly, most of them couldn't give a monkeys how you 'deem' their 'squawkings'.

WELL, that`s the first time I`ve been called THAT!!!

I love to hear people`s opinions but when they are stated as fact - e.g. `Clough is out of his depth`, `Clough must go`, etc. - then they are no longer opinions and lack credibility UNLESS they are backed up by substantial knowledge.

And as far as 9 defeats in 12 goes, remind me again how we fared in the 12 games prior to that, under the same manager?

[SillyBilly]

Armchair Managers

I am unashamedly part of the 'Clough In' brigade, mostly because we need stability and because other people more knowledgable than me think he is the right man for the job.

I accept that I have no knowledge of football management and that whatever I think I know, Nigel Clough, the players, the backroom staff, and even that american chap, Tom Glick know a hell of a lot more. Even if I did have some experience of football management I know nothing about the injury situation, about players' personal lives and influences, about the day-to-day finances, about our our opposition each week, about tactics in general or specific to our team, about player interractions, or morale.

If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up there anti-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen. Until then, I will deem your squawkings no more meaningful or inciteful than those of barnyard chickens.

Disagree.

[Bris Vegas]

WELL, that`s the first time I`ve been called THAT!!!

I love to hear people`s opinions but when they are stated as fact - e.g. `Clough is out of his depth`, `Clough must go`, etc. - then they are no longer opinions and lack credibility UNLESS they are backed up by substantial knowledge.

And as far as 9 defeats in 12 goes, remind me again how we fared in the 12 games prior to that, under the same manager?

Nigel Clough should be judged on league standing, not a batch of games.. For every great performance and victory there is an opposite.. Forget the run, a team doesn't become bad overnight nor does it become good overnight.. It is what the league position says it is..

People wouldn't be talking the same if we followed a 4-1 victory over Watford with a 5-2 loss at forest, followed by a 3-0 win over Preston followed by a 3-0 loss at Watford etc etc.

League position stands at 15th? Won 10 drawn 4 lost 13. Points 34. Is this good? Well take into account Watford finished below us last year, spent less than us in the summer but are so far around 10 points ahead of us. But on the flip side, Boro finished ahead of us last year, spent more than us in the summer yet are 5 odd points and a few places below us..

[Toadbelly]

I don't see the point of changing Nigel now, he has until the end of the season and if we show signs that we will play good football again then maybe he should get a 3rd season.

However couldn't ani-clough (as you call them) just simply ask the same in response? I.E.

"If there is ANYBODY on here who can back up their pro-Clough position with even a shred of evidence that they know what they're talking about, I will listen."

I think both sides need to accept certain facts.

1) we are not the biggest spenders and this has no doubt restricted players coming in - I'm sure Nigel would love a permanent quick striker for example

2) Nigel isn't perfect, he has made mistakes and will do in the future

People get bogged down on which side of the fence they should be rather than saying just looking objectively and seeing that there can be a middle ground.

I think the difference is that the 'pro' clough lobby are not saying they don't think he might be a poor manager, they are simply not claiming to know more than he does about managing the team and are therefore willing to defer to his decisions and accept the consequences. You do not need to prove that you know what you are talking about when you are not stating your opinion as fact.

I fully concur with your other points.

[Toadbelly]

Nigel Clough should be judged on league standing, not a batch of games.. For every great performance and victory there is an opposite.. Forget the run, a team doesn't become bad overnight nor does it become good overnight.. It is what the league position says it is..

People wouldn't be talking the same if we followed a 4-1 victory over Watford with a 5-2 loss at forest, followed by a 3-0 win over Preston followed by a 3-0 loss at Watford etc etc.

League position stands at 15th? Won 10 drawn 4 lost 13. Points 34. Is this good? Well take into account Watford finished below us last year, spent less than us in the summer but are so far around 10 points ahead of us. But on the flip side, Boro finished ahead of us last year, spent more than us in the summer yet are 5 odd points and a few places below us..

I totally agree. I am disappointed with our current league position but not dismayed by it. It could be worse, it could be better. I am worried about our current streak but am confident that it will end and results will once more improve.

[WilkoRam]

I think the difference is that the 'pro' clough lobby are not saying they don't think he might be a poor manager, they are simply not claiming to know more than he does about managing the team and are therefore willing to defer to his decisions and accept the consequences. You do not need to prove that you know what you are talking about when you are not stating your opinion as fact.

I fully concur with your other points.

By that logic then no manager should ever get sacked as arguably they all know better than we do. Jewell knows more about management than we do (although I'm sure someone will say 'yeah right' or 'are you sure?') so he should never have been sacked then?

I don't see that we've progressed. A few points and the odd league position? On the whole we've stood still in terms of on the pitch (and last season in terms of performances we went backwards, it was awful to watch) apart from 1 and a bit months of football. I take comfort in that period that we may be able to do it again but it's hardly proof we're heading in the right direction.

I didn't agree with them but Blackburn have risen 6 places since Allardyce was sacked, Newcastle 3 since Houghton was sacked, so then they've taken the club forward? You could argue (and i probably would) that there is no way of knowing if Houghton and Allardyce would have got them as high if not higher than that. Maybe they wouldn't, maybe they would have been lower? Who knows. What I don't like from the people firmly in the pro-Nigel camp is the way they portray that nobody could do any better than Nigel and claim that it is a FACT. It's not, it's an opinion, just like you say the anti-Nigel people offer with their views. And as shown with the two examples above a change can be better even if you think they doing a good job. Both camps have given 'facts' to back up their views

[Dangerous]

The teams confidence is rock bottom and that is cloughs job to turn it round.A win in the cup against crawley would have helped but they even managed to lose that. He has played people out of position,he has got rid of a half decent strike force and left us with a half arsed one.He didnt attempt to keep Frank Fielding here or Kuqi.Results and performances have plummeted since the two went back to their respective clubs.His substitutions are sometimes non existant or baffling.

I am also against his "jobs for the boys" clique that is at the club.

[Donny Ram]

By that logic then no manager should ever get sacked as arguably they all know better than we do. Jewell knows more about management than we do (although I'm sure someone will say 'yeah right' or 'are you sure?') so he should never have been sacked then?

I don't see that we've progressed. A few points and the odd league position? On the whole we've stood still in terms of on the pitch (and last season in terms of performances we went backwards, it was awful to watch) apart from 1 and a bit months of football. I take comfort in that period that we may be able to do it again but it's hardly proof we're heading in the right direction.

I didn't agree with them but Blackburn have risen 6 places since Allardyce was sacked, Newcastle 3 since Houghton was sacked, so then they've taken the club forward? You could argue (and i probably would) that there is no way of knowing if Houghton and Allardyce would have got them as high if not higher than that. Maybe they wouldn't, maybe they would have been lower? Who knows. What I don't like from the people firmly in the pro-Nigel camp is the way they portray that nobody could do any better than Nigel and claim that it is a FACT. It's not, it's an opinion, just like you say the anti-Nigel people offer with their views. And as shown with the two examples above a change can be better even if you think they doing a good job. Both camps have given 'facts' to back up their views

Wage bill cut further, debt reduced further, performance:

League position 14th, played 27, points 34 2011

League position ? , played 27, points 29 2010

70% support Clough, obviously the silent majority and the verciferous minority says it all.

[Alex W]

Disagree.

That is a pretty pointless response. Atleast reply to him properly or don't bother.

[davenportram]

Wage bill cut further, debt reduced further, performance:

League position 14th, played 27, points 34 2011

League position 19th , played 27, points 29 2010

70% support Clough, obviously the silent majority and the verciferous minority says it all.

Just put the league position in for you from 2010.

Will be at least 15th tomorrow night after Donnie and Barnsley play - if they draw 16th.

[Toadbelly]

By that logic then no manager should ever get sacked as arguably they all know better than we do. Jewell knows more about management than we do (although I'm sure someone will say 'yeah right' or 'are you sure?') so he should never have been sacked then?

I don't see that we've progressed. A few points and the odd league position? On the whole we've stood still in terms of on the pitch (and last season in terms of performances we went backwards, it was awful to watch) apart from 1 and a bit months of football. I take comfort in that period that we may be able to do it again but it's hardly proof we're heading in the right direction.

I didn't agree with them but Blackburn have risen 6 places since Allardyce was sacked, Newcastle 3 since Houghton was sacked, so then they've taken the club forward? You could argue (and i probably would) that there is no way of knowing if Houghton and Allardyce would have got them as high if not higher than that. Maybe they wouldn't, maybe they would have been lower? Who knows. What I don't like from the people firmly in the pro-Nigel camp is the way they portray that nobody could do any better than Nigel and claim that it is a FACT. It's not, it's an opinion, just like you say the anti-Nigel people offer with their views. And as shown with the two examples above a change can be better even if you think they doing a good job. Both camps have given 'facts' to back up their views

I would disagree with anyone that thinks nobody could do a better job. There are so many variables, I am sure many other managers might do a better job, and I am sure the same applies to every managerial position in the country. The problem is, we have done that a dozen(?) times in the last 15 years or so and how many times have we improved the situation WITHOUT changing the investment level?

There comes a time when every manager's day is done and they need to retire or get the sack but that decision should be made by the manager's employers who are best positioned to make it and, hopefully, do so based on facts rather than political convenience.