John Leslie

[RamNut]

17 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

As ever, the expectation is that the onus is on the woman to prevent situations like this. Don't wear provocative clothing, don't speak to anyone, and certainly don't accept a dance, otherwise it's an open invitation for a man to start touching you sexually. 

When this inevitably happens, it is then the woman's responsibility to deal with it. Make the boundaries clear, because the man can't be expected to know. React, say no, move away, make your lack of consent clear, once it has already been breached. 

Have no fear of doing this, because it is well known that men always accept rejection calmly and politely, and will never continue to harrass you, force themselves on you, or become violent. 

The assumption in your comment is that men pressing themselves sexually on a woman is the default, it is normal and to be expected, so if the woman doesn't take steps to prevent it she is basically asking for it.

Don't you think this attitude of presuming sexual availability until convinced otherwise is actually the problem? Ask the women in your life how easy it is to publicly reject a man who is pushing himself on you. How many have the experience of being harrassed and threatened. 

Don't bother telling me that it's #notallmen either, trying to avoid sexual harassment, assault and worse is a constant in the life of any woman who doesn't just want to stay at home, and even there it's not gauranteed. What to wear, where to walk, where to sit, who to talk to. That's just going about your daily life, not looking for a date. 

The whole attitude and culture needs to change, and unfortunately this is only going to happen when men start believing there are likely to be serious consequences for sexually harrassing and assaulting women. Currently, as the statistics I posted show, men who behave in this way are almost certain to get away with it. 

Somehow, you have managed to twist this situation around to make out that men are the victims, they are the ones who can't do anything without being accused. Your interpretation is so warped, it is laughable. 

I'm saying that there has to be proper evidence. 

 

[RamNut]

Quote

The offence of 'sexual assault' makes it a crime for the attacker to engage in any form of sexual activity which results in physical contact with the victim, directly, through clothing, with a part of the body or an object.

So.....if an allegation is made that an individual touches someone, even through clothing, how is the issue to be addressed?

can't just be one word against another.

 

[eddie]

6 minutes ago, RamNut said:

So.....if an allegation is made that an individual touches someone, even through clothing, how is the issue to be addressed?

can't just be one word against another.

 

Sometimes, you seem completely incapable of recognising when you are on the wrong side of an argument.

[RamNut]

1 minute ago, eddie said:

Sometimes, you seem completely incapable of recognising when you are on the wrong side of an argument.

So do you.

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

I'm saying that there has to be proper evidence. 

 

 

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

So.....if an allegation is made that an individual touches someone, even through clothing, how is the issue to be addressed?

can't just be one word against another.

 

There has to be justice, and currently there isn't. If someone touches you inappropriately and it's your word against theirs, how do you prove it? What objective evidence can you possibly provide?

What do you think should be done to protect women from this  kind of assault? Or are you implying that that the woman's objection is merely subjective, and therefore worthless?

[RamNut]

18 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

 

There has to be justice, and currently there isn't. If someone touches you inappropriately and it's your word against theirs, how do you prove it? What objective evidence can you possibly provide?

What do you think should be done to protect women from this  kind of assault? Or are you implying that that the woman's objection is merely subjective, and therefore worthless?

I agree with your first paragraph. Its very difficult to prove one way or the other. For a guilty verdict it has to be proved and the issue is the burden of proof required. Beyond reasonable doubt or balance of probabilities? For an allegation to be classified as false it also has to be proven to be false. Everything else is unsubstantiated or not proven.

therefore a case going to court needs evidence. 

In this case there isn't enough. The verdict was surely correct. 

 

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, Lambchop said:

What do you think should be done to protect women from this  kind of assault? 

 

55 minutes ago, RamNut said:

For a guilty verdict it has to be proved and the issue is the burden of proof required. Beyond reasonable doubt or balance of probabilities? 

You're not really answering my question. 

[bigbadbob]

8 hours ago, Paul71 said:

I do get what you are saying, but I think when you are 'getting off', you don't usually go in with hands down the pants sort of approach. I sort of think you do get permission at every stage even if its not verbal. You know, if you are slow dancing you 'know' if she wants a kiss, you 'know' if she doesn't mind your hand on her back, or even on her bum.  You 'know' when you take things somewhere else if she wants your hand inside her top and so on. There doesnt have to be a verbal agreement but body language works.

I remember when i was like 17 going to the cinema with a girl, took me ages to go from arm on arm rest to resting against hers, to little finger touching hers, to little finger over lapping hers and so on....the credits where on before i had my hand in her pants...ok the last bit didnt happen but you get my drift.

Anyway today they dont 'get off' like they did in my day, they have to like, friend, poke, swipe one way or the other before they even talk to each other.

 

Don't stop there, carry on. I'm nearly done. Unless ramnut can expand on the " tear me, tear me" thing. That should also do it

[RamNut]

2 hours ago, Lambchop said:

What do you think should be done to protect women from this  kind of assault?

I've no idea but i'm equally uncomfortable with the mere presumption that he or anyone else committed an offence with so little evidence presented.

At least this was in a public place and we might have expected a bit more evidence of a disturbance.

 

[RamNut]

35 minutes ago, bigbadbob said:

Don't stop there, carry on. I'm nearly done. Unless ramnut can expand on the " tear me, tear me" thing. That should also do it

This should finish you off then......

a mate of mine was in Pink Coconut or somewhere equally salubrious, fairly pissed and at the bar with his hands full of drinks. A girl came up to him, unzipped his trousers, and stuck her hand inside his pants. He was too pissed to bother.

[StringerBell]

If people want to finish each other off can they do it in PM's? 

[bigbadbob]

4 minutes ago, StringerBell said:

If people want to finish each other off can they do it in PM's? 

Ready when you are

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

This should finish you off then......

a mate of mine was in Pink Coconut or somewhere equally salubrious, fairly pissed and at the bar with his hands full of drinks. A girl came up to him, unzipped his trousers, and stuck her hand inside his pants. He was too pissed to bother.

Hope he didnt spill his beer.

[archied]

18 hours ago, Lambchop said:

As ever, the expectation is that the onus is on the woman to prevent situations like this. Don't wear provocative clothing, don't speak to anyone, and certainly don't accept a dance, otherwise it's an open invitation for a man to start touching you sexually. 

When this inevitably happens, it is then the woman's responsibility to deal with it. Make the boundaries clear, because the man can't be expected to know. React, say no, move away, make your lack of consent clear, once it has already been breached. 

Have no fear of doing this, because it is well known that men always accept rejection calmly and politely, and will never continue to harrass you, force themselves on you, or become violent. 

The assumption in your comment is that men pressing themselves sexually on a woman is the default, it is normal and to be expected, so if the woman doesn't take steps to prevent it she is basically asking for it.

Don't you think this attitude of presuming sexual availability until convinced otherwise is actually the problem? Ask the women in your life how easy it is to publicly reject a man who is pushing himself on you. How many have the experience of being harrassed and threatened. 

Don't bother telling me that it's #notallmen either, trying to avoid sexual harassment, assault and worse is a constant in the life of any woman who doesn't just want to stay at home, and even there it's not gauranteed. What to wear, where to walk, where to sit, who to talk to. That's just going about your daily life, not looking for a date. 

The whole attitude and culture needs to change, and unfortunately this is only going to happen when men start believing there are likely to be serious consequences for sexually harrassing and assaulting women. Currently, as the statistics I posted show, men who behave in this way are almost certain to get away with it. 

Somehow, you have managed to twist this situation around to make out that men are the victims, they are the ones who can't do anything without being accused. Your interpretation is so warped, it is laughable. 

Parts of your post I agree with and parts that are very worrying too and I thinks that’s the tendency you have to throw a cover all blanket on issues ,, 

it is not only a woman’s responsibility to deal with ,it is the reposability of society but to dismiss the vast numbers of men who behave in a proper manner and no longer accept or turn a blind eye to men who don’t is offensive ,,, time was every family had a shifty uncle who everybody knew was a bloody menace around females under the umbrella of being a friend or family and people put up with it , well in the main that stuff has changed and decent men are just as on board with stamping this out as women ,

we had someone in a group of friends we started socialising with who was a total groper, I was stunned that nobody called it what it was , I had only been around him in a golf invironment before and had not seen that side ,, when I saw it I pulled him aside and told him in no uncertain terms exactly what it was ie sexual assault and not to ever do it in my presence , he was shocked but approached me a few days later and thanked me for being honest with him and Ive not seen him behave that way again 

[McRainy]

20 minutes ago, archied said:

Parts of your post I agree with and parts that are very worrying too and I thinks that’s the tendency you have to throw a cover all blanket on issues ,, 

it is not only a woman’s responsibility to deal with ,it is the reposability of society but to dismiss the vast numbers of men who behave in a proper manner and no longer accept or turn a blind eye to men who don’t is offensive ,,, time was every family had a shifty uncle who everybody knew was a bloody menace around females under the umbrella of being a friend or family and people put up with it , well in the main that stuff has changed and decent men are just as on board with stamping this out as women ,

we had someone in a group of friends we started socialising with who was a total groper, I was stunned that nobody called it what it was , I had only been around him in a golf invironment before and had not seen that side ,, when I saw it I pulled him aside and told him in no uncertain terms exactly what it was ie sexual assault and not to ever do it in my presence , he was shocked but approached me a few days later and thanked me for being honest with him and Ive not seen him behave that way again 

#notallmen

[ramsbottom]

When you make a show as terrible as Scavengers, you deserve all the ill will you get...