Alph

It's been far too peaceful considering the numbers and it makes it hard for them to be "Hamas supporters" I remember the BLM vandalism. As a history geek the whole tearing down statues seemed stupid to me. Like, you pulled down a statue of a man of the times who used slavery to build x and x in Bristol. But he still did it. You've not erased the history. X was still built and funded based on slavery. Shouldn't we give context rather than destroy? Add to our culture instead of deny it? I dunno, I remember that was a controversial topic. Another funny thing is apparently in video games there's something about not showing the swastika. That made me giggle. We don't want Nazis being offensive. But plenty of messages are going around asking protesters to respect the laws and customs of the countries they're in. Don't play into the hands of people like Braverman. I know though that there will be idiots and racists that see anything like this as a chance to spread their hatred. GB News is funny. I visited my uncle last night and he always has it on. It's like a cliché. Hate March! Immigrants! Free housing for immigrants! NHS crisis due to migration! 2m rapists cross the border every day! Bloomin' heck. No wonder my Uncle is a miserable cnut who doesn't go out. He thinks there a Romanian gypsy waiting to kill him and sell his organs. Cheerful stuff!

There's a lot of effort to make Pro Palestinians protests look like they're coming to get you!! One weekend, I'm not sure how many tens of thousands marched but there were a handful of offences and two or three of those were by people opposing protests. Apparently there was an article saying thousands of football fans are going to protect the Cenotaph? I've not seen the article but I'd be interested to know how it works Was the news source lucky enough to be included in the conversation and planning between rival fans? Where did this take place? Is there a hidden part of this forum where some of the Derby lads are chatting with Forest and Leicester fans? Just curious like. I'm not saying everything is being done to discourage protests with vague threats/incitement and it's being suggested that the salt of the earth types are saving the day from the "Hate March". It must be hard to accept that only a tiny minute percentage of these anti-British Hamas supporters are causing any trouble. Hopefully the protests erupt in violence this weekend, eh? Fingers crossed Suella

Thanks! If I come across like a ranting lunatic it's because I type whatever comes into my head. I'm not like a confrontational person who like overpowers people in a real life debate. It might be just how I come across on here because I get carried away when making my point and don't structure anything if you know what I mean?

I'm not sure how to take that. 🤣 I don't know if I did something wrong? Should I be arguing against Islamophobia month? For anti-Semitism month? Did I say something wrong?

My beliefs are what? That if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, if they laid down all weapons that 1)This wouldn't halt Israeli expansion in West Bank. 2) That another resistance would rise in their place because of the condition of Palestinian people That if Israel respected international law, respected boundaries. Worked with Palestinians. Halted the settlements. Actually stopped and punished settler violence. If they gave Palestinians a reason to reject Hamas then we would find a route towards peace. When the need for a resistance would fade. And Israel being a powerful military nation has the ability to fight Hamas/defend themselves AND work with Palestinians (probably Fatah to create a state) It wouldn't be a smooth ride. But it would be the right road. That is my belief. Do you have problem with that? The final sentence is just unnecessarily rude. 🤣

I just didn't want to talk about anti-Semitism or Islamophobia month. I didn't know Islamophobia month was a thing. I'm an atheist so I think, if I understand the Qur'an, that I'm going to hell? I think you have to believe in a God? Dunno. But these big kind of corporate awareness things... I don't pay attention. Black history month? If it helps then good. But I'm not offended by it and I'm not doing whatever I should be doing to support it. None of those things. During Islamophobia month I'll be not believing in God and hiding my browsing history from my missus. I'm a sinner. It was just to take it down the "do we like Muslims more than Jews?" path. It's not that I'm saying his opinion is right/wrong. I'm saying I don't want to argue with it? Palestinians are Semite. He needs a different thread for that route.

This is why I don't go with the "adding context angle not excuses" angle. I'm biased. I'm not biased because I'm Muslim, Arab, antisemetic, anti Israel existence. I'm biased because Palestinian suffering is far greater than Israeli. There was a debate once in Speakers Corner between an ex IDF soldier and Mohammed Hijab. He asked about the disproportionate force used etc and do you know what she said? "That's because we have better weapons, technology and training. If Hamas had those things then Israel would be destroyed. If Israel didn't have the Iron Dome we'd all be dead" .... She's 100% correct. Is she not? Give Israel knives and AK's and give Hamas tanks, jets and tech and what happens? Jews are not above terrorism. That's a fact. Nobody is. Guerilla, militant, terrorism Vs a powerful military.... How's it going to go? So my bias isn't in who's better people. Who deserves the land. It's the same reason a book or movie has the good guys suffering. Has a redemption arc. Makes an effort to have you empathise. My bias is because the Palestinians are the ones who suffer most. The casualties, the land, the human rights! But you trying add context by articles like this and from medialine is no different from me quoting Al-Jazeera or TRT. In fact I don't know how reliable some independent investigations into reliable news reporting but medialine is is very low rated for reliability on the first search that came up. The article was vague and made assumptions. Just as that Guardian nonsense. But then you want to cut the conversation dead and "leave you to your thread". Because I'm confusing context with excuses? What? Because I reject some of the stuff your posting as independent? Am I not allowed to do that? You can do it to the links I've posted from UN, Amnesty, Al Jazeera etc. The issue is, Israel have a history of influence over the narrative. And we've seen doctored evidence of that. 40 decapitated babies. Mass rape. We didn't have live ammunition. This video shows Hamas gunman killing Al Jazeera journalist. These are stories broadcast not just by Israel but all across mainstream media. To post things that say "well, it might have happened" is not adding context. It's supporting what, until this point, is not true. Like the Holocaust stuff. "Adding context". But it's not a context many many Jews are adding. It's not a context those who oppose Netenyahu are adding. Why are they not adding it. When their grandmother's and grandfather's were murdered? Why are they not searching for context? It's because it's not context. It's justification for what we are seeing. And they don't want to justify it. They are trying to move forward. Not fuel the paranoia and fear that will live with them forever. Nobody forgets the Jewish suffering. But when Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel, I'm sorry, but to constantly say we have to understand it is not entirely the big issue. Because Palestinians are Semite people. They don't threaten Israel based on their Jewishness?

(Deleted. No point going down this route. Sorry)

Yeah also I can believe it. It's not like I've ever suggested Hamas are noble resistance. I said they aren't exactly Robin Hood and his Merry Men. I said they need to be gone. I know they want Israel destroyed entirely and they're back by Iran. All this I've said. So many times. But they will not be defeated like this. They just won't. Which is why it all lies in understanding what they thrive on. What keeps them in power. How can we take steps to remove that influence. How can we get Palestinians to resist Hamas. Or just keep doing the revenge arc back and forth. Which is what we're going to do. There's no chance of peace. Hamas will still exist in 10 years. Innocent people from Sinai to Jordan and Iran to Lebanon will continue to die to IDF and Hamas. Because we have to create good Vs evil.

@cstandmate, honestly I'm done after the disputed land comment. There's no where to go from this point. The gaslighting antisemite accusations. Whatever. I can be antisemitic if you want me to be. Whatever you like. Your problem with Islamophobia month is your problem. Not mine. Write a letter, go on a protest. I'm not bothered at all. They can have Antisemitism month 12 times per year for me. I don't care. Black history month? I don't care. White Supremacy month? I don't care unless I get some vouchers for my white hood collection. There's just no debate to be had when it gets to this point. It's like the arguments in Speakers Corner between a Zionist and a Muslim who rejects all of Israel. No point. I don't know why they bother.

Just out of interest, what do you think a Pakistani, Indian neighbour would say? Let's assumed you bumped into him on the way to the "pxki shop", as it was regularly called. I mean I know Arabs/Muslims have a great relationship with Europeans and Brits but let's just imagine for second that community was not fully integrated into our own.... What would an Afghan or Iraqi neighbour say?

Because we all hate Jews. Which is why we stuck them in the Middle East after killing them for centuries I don't know. You did me with the disputed land like all land comment 🤣 Go on Vlad, take back that disputed land! Taiwan? Oh you mean disputed China? I wish I was your neighbour. I'd move my fence over while you were at work

Oh my God.

You're getting closer. Now you can unterchange Hamas/Israel, Jewish/Palestinian and you would be 100% correct. That's the point. That's why nobody here supports Hamas. But between Hamas and Israel one is a huge military power occupying land illegally and kills a much larger number of innocent people. For any step towards peace, Israel has to take it's foot off the throat of Palestine otherwise it will continue to be kicked in the struggle. We have to be careful not to weaken Israel to the point they're vulnerable to their neighbours. But the first move is with the occupier. Not the occupied. It's like asking Ukraine to stop attacking Russia. Respect the fecking boundaries then. International law. Treaties!

Do you want me to answer? Why are there protests in Israel? Why are IDF serving soldiers speaking out against the Apartheid regime? It's because they don't blame Palestinians for centuries of Jewish suffering. They mostly blame Europeans. They recognise the illegal occupation of West Bank. Some of them have even served in operations to remove Palestinians in West Bank. They recognise the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the indiscriminate bombing of human beings. And because they want hostages brought home safe. Because they don't want to face Hamas forever. That's why they're calling for a ceasefire and pro active solutions for the innocent Jews and Arabs. As are Jews For Justice For Palestinians What's wrong with these people. Why don't they want Hamas destroyed as Netenyahu is doing? Why are they being assaulted by Israeli police? (Edited to add the Netenyahu bit as I'm sure all Jews want Hamas destroyed. As should any human being. But it's when and how. Not pretend that this will actually work)

That's how they're protesting. Not why.

It's just annoying when people try to reduce your argument to "if you're only argument is that they didn't behead babies then you have no argument at all". And "I've been to music festivals... Imagine if....." There's so much more to Hamas than just insane murder. People call the situation complex but it seems that's only to excuse Israel. It's never complex when it's Hamas. But it's important to take time to understand why Hamas exist. Because they aren't going to be removed unless you remove a need(?) for a resistance. Painting them as just straight up savage barbarians is convenient. Give Hamas the weaponry Israel have and see it they resort to car bombs and AK's. Stick Israeli Jews in a densely populated region the size of Glasgow and see if Hamas use paragliders and swords. If they could sit in Tel Aviv and just press buttons to wipe out Israel that's exactly what they'd do. Because they're no more or less evil than the Israeli state. Would that sit better? Would that make them more civilised? As for the relatability he went into great depth with. Well also imagine forcibly being removed from your house. Your neighbours brutally beaten. Set on fire. Shot in cold blood. Stabbed to death. Then your home demolished and your entire suburb redistributed to others. Imagine protesting this and being shot. Imagine the lights going out in your city and you can't leave. Bombs destroying your home. Wiping at your business. Killing your friends. And you have zero say in who runs your country. You are born in a cage you will never leave. This is the thing that I find frustrating. People always want to talk about the complex issues around Israel/Jews. Which I get. And I get that there would be NO Israel if Hamas had power. But when it comes to the other side they want to flat refuse any reasoning. They're just savages. And to make sure they're only ever discussed on that level we can't just have them killing people. They have to be doing it in the most graphic and evil ways. To the most vulnerable. So any argument on their point is instantly null and void. The funny story about the Hamas suicide bomber that Israel found an instruction manual on. Come on!!! ffs. What sort of suicide bomber carries a shopping list with them? Get real ffs. The truth is bad. Stop making lies to halt any further discussion. This is why Palestinians won't come out and instantly condemn Hamas. Because first they want to talk about the wider conflict. They want Israel to be held to the same standards as Hamas. THEN, we can talk about Hamas as evil. Once we set the rules. Not "terrorist attack" Vs "collateral damage"

Why are there protests in Israel? Are these Jews not aware of the Holocaust? Are they not aware that Hamas attacked their people? Why are there calls for end of occupation? Jew traitors?

You call the thread a cesspit and then post that. Like the only point I've made is babies weren't beheaded so it's fine. Okay let's walk through it. How does what's happening in Gaza eliminate Hamas? Are Hamas in West Bank? If I came to you before October 7th and showed you the data of civilian deaths and came with horrifying examples like families being burned alive and a whole list of barbaric crimes commited by IDF forces, crimes noted by every Human Rights group, then what would you say? (Good work on mentioning Holocaust. Always a good defence for a government mass murdering a specific people and driving them from their land. Zzzz)

There's no evidence of 40 beheaded babies. There isn't. It was a lie. Why are you so desperate to defend Israel? They are the occupiers. Palestinians are the oppressed. Hamas are vile but do you think it's not pretty much part of the game that you'll face a militant resistance when you're an Apartheid state killing Palestinians and stealing their homes. What right have they got. All I hear is "Holocaust". Feck that. That does not give them the right to do what they do in West Bank. Nothing does. What's the UN take on Israel? Human Rights Watch? Amnesty Int? Save The Children? You know what they do in West Bank? You know right? And you know Gaza is a prison? Patrolled by gun boats and jet fighters? Fenced in? And it gets plunged into darkness while Palestinians die in their thousands. Not Hamas. Palestinians. And is anyone here stupid enough to think this wipes out Hamas? Really? How many people have come on this thread and suggested it will make them stronger? Or radicalise more Palestinians? It's bloody obvious to anybody. Everybody. So what are they doing then? Take into consideration their actions in West Bank. Everything is disproportionate. Do you see the amount of Jews not crying "anti-Semitism"?. Do you see the amount of Jews calling this genocide? Do you know of JewsForJustice? What do these people make of Israel's behaviour for decades? Everybody was there with their Ukraine flags in their gardens. Changing their profile picture to Ukraine flags. Offering them a bedroom. Why? Because they agreed bombing the s*** out of people is generally not nice. But Israel have done this for decades. And they kill Palestinians where there are no Hamas. But rather than accept it we've got people on here saying no. These Arabs have no right to fight back. Israel has a right to defend itself. Thousands dead in Gaza. Thousands dead in the last decade. People burned alive, stoned, dragged from their homes by settlers and beaten to death. Protesters shot with live ammunition. Video evidence from Israel proven fake. Lies from Netenyahu and leaks about what he really thinks of Hamas. Are you going to offer up an equal defence for Russia's invasion? Is anyone? No. Some are barely willing to acknowledge any of the actual facts Putin laid down. Because once you start dropping bombs on hospitals you generally lose support But no. Not Israel. People will leap to find a defence for illegal occupation. For the disproportionate killings of innocent people. 'Well they've faced ethnic cleansing so cut em some slack. They're defensive' Nope. Only an idiot thinks they're there for Hamas. They're no better than Hamas. They lie. They murder. They're terrorists. But Palestinians aren't. They just lose everything. There for Hamas my backside. They're there for the "peace corridor." For the handshake with Saudi Arabia and to threaten Iran. They're there to secure natural resources. They've been saying it for frcking decades. Go check. Or are you going to tell me this is a hostage rescue? It's self defence? It's defeating Hamas? anti-Semitism this and Holocaust that. The air stinks of Islamophobia. If Palestinians were white Europeans there'd be crocodile tears pissing out of the lot of you. https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation again for anyone who missed it. Just how are they better than Hamas? They're just more efficient at killing.

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation Just in case anybody thinks Israel never lie. Of course there's lying from Palestinians. They're currently being illegally occupied and ethnically cleansed. So a balanced argument right now seems a bit of a joke.

I don't even need to argue with that. Better I just agree. Israeli forensic teams say they find evidence of horrific attack. But they can't be sure if some of the butchering was after. Meanwhile the people of Gaza are exaggerating the effects of indiscriminate bombing. "Actors" I think somebody said earlier in the thread.

The beheaded babies/rape seems more and more like the propaganda to paint Hamas as monsters so that Israel can do their horrific work and it looks civil by comparison. What Hamas did do though seems bad enough from independent evidence. They were trying to kidnap women and children but were shooting men at point blank range. They were gathering them in shelters or houses and throwing grenades in. That accounts for the images of charred bodies. Most of the evidence of mass rape, beheadings etc seems to only come from Israel forensic teams and it's not been independently verified. Israel have a history of "evidence" What Israel also don't mention is their Hannibal Directive. To open fire without restraint even if that means killing hostages. I mean, we know this anyway because they're bombing Gaza and if the hostages are still alive it's because Hamas are keeping them safe. Some of the damage from October 7th isn't consistent with Hamas weaponry but at the end of the day Hamas were the ones that caused 1,400 deaths so the fact that IDF don't hold fire in hostage situations is probably not something to give too much significance? Another one is the hospital strikes. We saw "proof" that the rocket was from Hamas. But that proof is not conclusive after all. And then there was the journalists private screening they were invited to. A "horrifying compilation".... Oh I bet it was. Did it include the Duma attack? Nah. Did it mention Huwara? I doubt it. Israel lies. Yet we still buy it until it's proven false and then it's too late. They'd hate you to think this is an extremely violent resistance fighting an extremely violent state. You might start suggesting Arab lives are as important as Jew lives. Better to sprinkle some extra barbaric savagery wherever possible. It's a good sell

I did think that too. I knew what he meant but it's important to distinguish. Many Jews are horrified because they're human and too familiar ethnic cleansing. I think a genuine mistake from Bob. Suella Braverman however makes no such distinction between Palestinians/pro-Palestinians and terrorists. She's vile and starting to make Liz Truss comments in the Ukraine conflict seem quite calm and reasonable.

#freePalestine. I knew starting a thread would be controversial and probably end with me banned so I didn't. But Hamas are not the Palestinian people. Many in Gaza are trapped in every possible way a person can be trapped. Hamas deserved everything they'll get and more. Iranian funded terrorists who don't care about Palestine as much as they care about destroying Israel. They don't have the interest of Palestine in their minds. However, they have driven out the pathetic infighting Palestinian attempts at authority so you can see why recruiting angry young men is easy work for them. But the wider war. Well, invasion. Occupation is by America's dog. Netenyahu probably cracked one off when he heard about that terrorist attack on innocent Israelis. They don't need any excuse to build illegal settlements in West Bank. They don't need any excuses to expand their borders for 70 years. They just mutter something about biblical age and swallow more land. Now they have something of an excuse to starve and squeeze Gaza. To drop bombs on civilians. They're not terrorists though. Just defending themselves. Very reasonable to cut off the legs of the people of Gaza and then tell them to run. Where? No their problem. Just run before they come and steal more land. Or spend those American dollars by killing Palestinian children to right Hamas' wrong. Tbf they did pull out the bible to explain why it's rightfully their land. And the native (lol) Americans support it with billions of dollars.