Guest Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Did I say players wage budget? So you are saying total wages ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 But would it not be a difficult question, do you for example include the costs of the development of players like Hughes and Hendrick? Also is our squad size not one of the smallest? Something clough senior liked, therefore is our wage budget lower as a result of this, and the average player salary maybe on a par ? Not that I doubt we lack investment to guide us to the top of the league, but is it as bad as the bottom 4 all things considered? Academy costs would be better compared to transfer fees really,both essentially costs of acquiring/producing the player. Is our wage budget lower because we have a small squad,or do we have a small squad because we have a low wage budget? I take your point about average salary,however if you were to look at the wage table you only have to go up 2 places to find Burnley on £17m .Would Burnley's squad size be that much larger than ours to the extent that £4m would cover the wages of the extras? (and I'd put my house on our non player wages being much higher than theirs,hence widening the £4m gap). I don't claim anything for our wage table position,merely listen to/read what's being said and try to work out if it appears reasonable.For what it's worth,as far as players' wages go I wouldn't discount bottom 6,but would be surprised (but not flabbergasted) by bottom 4. If you look at players we've signed from NPC clubs,then Barker,Shackell,Roberts,O'Connor,Theo,Keogh(Coventry only just out of NPC) all had something in common.We're now being strongly linked with a player from another NPC club,again below us in the wage table.This is rather what you'd expect to see if we were only able to offer moderate wages-we'd be asking players from higher ranked clubs to take wage cuts.Of course this rather limits the size of the pond. The exceptions to the above were Ward and Tyson,both strikers.For a normally expensive animal like a striker,I suppose you can take the odd gamble-it might be difficult for us to get an experienced NPC striker otherwise.Life quickly taught me that gambling isn't a great option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Having looked at one of my earlier posts,I'd like to apologise to Don for my comment "every little helps".I meant this in the context of the likely annualised amount versus what most think we need for an assault on the top 6,team strengthening wise.I didn't mean to belittle Don's contribution,so well done to the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 A six figure sum is sod all. There's nothing to see here. Move along. It is really desperate now, isn't it? No news stories filtering out the club. Small change name rights of lounges, investment deals with the local chippie... This investment may not even cover the weekly wages of a top 4-5 prem regular. Propaganda based on breadcrumb offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Academy costs would be better compared to transfer fees really,both essentially costs of acquiring/producing the player. Is our wage budget lower because we have a small squad,or do we have a small squad because we have a low wage budget? I take your point about average salary,however if you were to look at the wage table you only have to go up 2 places to find Burnley on £17m .Would Burnley's squad size be that much larger than ours to the extent that £4m would cover the wages of the extras? (and I'd put my house on our non player wages being much higher than theirs,hence widening the £4m gap). I don't claim anything for our wage table position,merely listen to/read what's being said and try to work out if it appears reasonable.For what it's worth,as far as players' wages go I wouldn't discount bottom 6,but would be surprised (but not flabbergasted) by bottom 4. If you look at players we've signed from NPC clubs,then Barker,Shackell,Roberts,O'Connor,Theo,Keogh(Coventry only just out of NPC) all had something in common.We're now being strongly linked with a player from another NPC club,again below us in the wage table.This is rather what you'd expect to see if we were only able to offer moderate wages-we'd be asking players from higher ranked clubs to take wage cuts.Of course this rather limits the size of the pond. The exceptions to the above were Ward and Tyson,both strikers.For a normally expensive animal like a striker,I suppose you can take the odd gamble-it might be difficult for us to get an experienced NPC striker otherwise.Life quickly taught me that gambling isn't a great option. I don't disagree with most of what you said, I would add that both central defenders were rumoured to have chosen derby over two clubs that have a higher wage bill, which would indicate that we paid them the going rate, however I'm guessing of course. I wouldn't be surprised to see our first 11 wage budget be competitive within the league, how ever the squad budget not. This of course leads to difficulties when injuries, tiredness, or changing a game becomes more difficult. My original point was more to Davenport though, whose source tells him we are in the bottom 4 wage bracket, something I was surprised could be proved at this stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 I don't disagree with most of what you said, I would add that both central defenders were rumoured to have chosen derby over two clubs that have a higher wage bill, which would indicate that we paid them the going rate, however I'm guessing of course. I wouldn't be surprised to see our first 11 wage budget be competitive within the league, how ever the squad budget not. This of course leads to difficulties when injuries, tiredness, or changing a game becomes more difficult. My original point was more to Davenport though, whose source tells him we are in the bottom 4 wage bracket, something I was surprised could be proved at this stage? Given the table already posted, cuts to our budget and teams boosting theirs (Watford springs to mind with their loans swelling their squad) and maybe knowledge of the promoted teams then proved my be too strong but very educated deduction more accurate. guess we will find out around Christmas when accounts have to be pit to the football league for FFP scrutiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Think Dec 1st is the deadline,but we have to wait the month for public issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I don't disagree with most of what you said, I would add that both central defenders were rumoured to have chosen derby over two clubs that have a higher wage bill, which would indicate that we paid them the going rate, however I'm guessing of course. I wouldn't be surprised to see our first 11 wage budget be competitive within the league, how ever the squad budget not. This of course leads to difficulties when injuries, tiredness, or changing a game becomes more difficult. My original point was more to Davenport though, whose source tells him we are in the bottom 4 wage bracket, something I was surprised could be proved at this stage? Far from convinced by your second paragraph-suppose it depends what you mean by competitive.Never been impressed by rumours.-they can be used to manipulate opinion.i'm more interested in the concrete trend that we appear to be mainly looking at players whose clubs are below us in the wage table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Far from convinced by your second paragraph-suppose it depends what you mean by competitive.Never been impressed by rumours.-they can be used to manipulate opinion.i'm more interested in the concrete trend that we appear to be mainly looking at players whose clubs are below us in the wage table. But you choose to believe the rumours that link us with players this summer as per your quote earlier, that are from teams below us in the wage table ? Sammon I guess was not in a team below us in the league? Martin as well ? Forsyth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 But you choose to believe the rumours that link us with players this summer as per your quote earlier, that are from teams below us in the wage table ? Sammon I guess was not in a team below us in the league? Martin as well ? Forsyth? I mentioned one player (Baptiste),a story that the DET covered.He's an experienced defender,out of contract,and Clough said we were looking to bring in an experienced defender.A poster revealed that a scout had been seen at Blackpool.All in all,not quite the 'man in the pub/street' type rumour with absolutely no meat on the bone. I only mentioned a general trend with regards to our signings from the NPC and didn't even mention the 3 you cite,and nowhere did I say there weren't exceptions (in fact I gave 2).If we pursue Forsyth,then we're talking about another club in and around us on wages.If Norwich don't extend Martin's contract,then a player who had been on the fringes at his club and farmed out on loan might not be able to demand a lot in wages (if he wants to stay employed).As far as Sammon goes,whilst we don't know his wages,as I said earlier strikers are different animals and you might have to pay a bit more (unless they're in danger of the scrapheap) If other clubs want Martin,then things might be different (assuming we;re still interested)-if we're the only club (or highest ranking club) in,then the dynamics shift in our favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I mentioned one player (Baptiste),a story that the DET covered.He's an experienced defender,out of contract,and Clough said we were looking to bring in an experienced defender.A poster revealed that a scout had been seen at Blackpool.All in all,not quite the 'man in the pub/street' type rumour with absolutely no meat on the bone. I only mentioned a general trend with regards to our signings from the NPC and didn't even mention the 3 you cite,and nowhere did I say there weren't exceptions (in fact I gave 2).If we pursue Forsyth,then we're talking about another club in and around us on wages.If Norwich don't extend Martin's contract,then a player who had been on the fringes at his club and farmed out on loan might not be able to demand a lot in wages (if he wants to stay employed).As far as Sammon goes,whilst we don't know his wages,as I said earlier strikers are different animals and you might have to pay a bit more (unless they're in danger of the scrapheap) If other clubs want Martin,then things might be different (assuming we;re still interested)-if we're the only club (or highest ranking club) in,then the dynamics shift in our favour. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/derby_county/8147895.stm That's the link showing barker turned down the red dogshttp://www.clubcall.com/championship/clough-praises-keoghs-attitude-1446580.html Looking at this, it seems keough was offered more elsewhere, however I can't see it being a massive difference. I'd be very surprised if we could sign a player who is not on the fringes on the prem, and players with a proven track record even in this league go for a lot of dollar, are there many teams in this league who don't buy from teams around or below ? As I said, I don't think you are wrong in the overall budget, I just think there are more exceptions than just ward and Tyson, and the board have backed Clough when needed.....at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Fair enough,but as far as Barker goes he was signed when a directors' report had said we were aiming for promotion by the end of 09/10 (the report having been written after Clough had been installed as manager,because the report welcomed him on board) and so the ambition might have been a little higher at that time (the wage bill certainly was LOL).Looking at the piece on Keogh,whilst the report actually said Clough said something,if you look at the quote itself it says "probably could have"- if it happened the "probably" is redundant LeedsRam said- http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/derby_county/8147895.stm That's the link showing barker turned down the red dogshttp://www.clubcall.com/championship/clough-praises-keoghs-attitude-1446580.html Looking at this, it seems keough was offered more elsewhere, however I can't see it being a massive difference. I'd be very surprised if we could sign a player who is not on the fringes on the prem, and players with a proven track record even in this league go for a lot of dollar, are there many teams in this league who don't buy from teams around or below ? As I said, I don't think you are wrong in the overall budget, I just think there are more exceptions than just ward and Tyson, and the board have backed Clough when needed.....at times. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You didn't answer my earlier question on the definition of competitive.If you were to take the example of Burnley (placed a modest 13th in that wages table) their £4m differential would enable them,for instance,to pay 23 players £3k more /wk +ENIC than we could pay 23 of our own.The further up the table you go,the wider the differential,and that ignores the side issue of our non player wages. I find it difficult to come to terms with the concept of our being competitive on wages,in respect of a top 6 push,when the actual overall wages suggest otherwise-no matter what individual 'anomalies' you come up with. Sorry,don't know what happened with this post-I might be having connection problems-'autosave' didn't work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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