Wenger almost Signed Ronaldo ...

[Daz_The_Ram]

Very logical response ... ;-)

I just feel he has far more presence since he returned ...  was a bit of a flat track bully at Arsenal, as many are under Wenger.

Looks to me now though like he could be the real difference that tilts the title Chelsea's way, along with Costa's goals of course - however, all top strikers need service of the same level. Ask Balotelli - he is currently struggling for any at Liverpool...

The title, wih or without Fabregas - is one thing Arsenal will never achieve again so long as the Frenchman is manager.

[Daaave]

You can call it a sense of humour bypass for calling you out if you like but the truth is that Wenger, in his best days at Arsenal, signed and developed players that became some of the world's best. Henry in particular he developed from a very young age. initially at Monaco, into the greatest striker the Premier League has seen. When Ronaldo left Sporting to join Man United Wenger and Arsenal were at their absolute peak and I've no doubts he would have gone on to the same level he is at now if he'd joined them and not United.

 

Coming back to Fabregas, you say Arsenal was seen as a stepping stone for him which is perhaps a fair assessment. But why would Barcelona send him (and why would he want to go) to play under a manager that you seem to be suggesting has no ability to develop players in that case?

 

Whatever you may think of Wenger now, he has been perhaps the best manager in England in the last 15 years at signing and developing players. He has his issues, and I actually agree Arsenal won't win the league again whilst he's in charge, but player development has never been one of them.

 

You're suggesting that I'm blinded by what the pro-Arsenal/pro-Wenger media spouts to us, personally it seems to me that you're blinded by a dislike of the man and refuse to give him any credit at all.

[Daz_The_Ram]

There is an exception to every rule. Henry is just that.

For every Henry, every Fabregas, there have been far more failures.

Aliadiere, Sanogo, Ryan Smith, Bentley, Frimpong, Hoyte, Pennant, Lupoli (as much as we loved him here), Franny Jeffers, Senderos, Barazite, Boa Morte, Ricketts, and of course, the crown jewell ... Bendtner.

Most of the players ACTUALLY NURTURED through Arsenal's academy are lightweights, ineffectuals, flat track bullies who are not good enough when it really matters. 

Players like Bergkamp, Campbell, Wright, Adams, Dixon, Keown, Seaman, Pires, Ljungberg, Kanu, Petit, Vieira ... were all top class in the first place - the finished article.... 

Besides - in their so-called 'Invincible' season, Arsenal weren't even unbeaten in all competitions anyway ... only in one competition. Any of Wenger's sides were not a patch, not a patch, on the great United sides of Keane, Schmeicel, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham etc. etc. etc.

At one time, maybe 20-odd years ago - he was considered by some to be ahead of his time, but he has long been a busted flush.

I live in the area ... most Gooners that know their football have wanted rid for a very long time. If he'd not somehow dug out that FA Cup win ... he'd have had to resign before he reached the Wembley Stadium car park.

[Daaave]

There is an exception to every rule. Henry is just that.

For every Henry, every Fabregas, there have been far more failures.

Aliadiere, Sanogo, Ryan Smith, Bentley, Frimpong, Hoyte, Pennant, Lupoli (as much as we loved him here), Franny Jeffers, Senderos, Barazite, Boa Morte, Ricketts, and of course, the crown jewell ... Bendtner.

 

No manager is going to have more successes than failures with youngsters, it's just not realistic. A lot of the names mentioned are players who you list above were players who showed promise at youth level and could never step up. How are you going to blame Wenger for that? I suppose every promising United youth player that failed to make the top in the last 25 years is Fergie's fault?

 

Most of the players ACTUALLY NURTURED through Arsenal's academy are lightweights, ineffectuals, flat track bullies who are not good enough when it really matters. 

Players like Bergkamp, Campbell, Wright, Adams, Dixon, Keown, Seaman, Pires, Ljungberg, Kanu, Petit, Vieira ... were all top class in the first place - the finished article.... 

 

Petit was developed by Wenger from 18, at Monaco first then joining him at Arsenal. Vieira you think was the finished article when he arrived at Arsenal at 20 yeah? Including these 2 in that list just suggests to me you're blinded on this... The others? Yes they were top players when they arrived (or Wenger inherited them) but no manager develops their whole team from scratch through youth...

 

Besides - in their so-called 'Invincible' season, Arsenal weren't even unbeaten in all competitions anyway ... only in one competition. Any of Wenger's sides were not a patch, not a patch, on the great United sides of Keane, Schmeicel, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham etc. etc. etc.

 

Cole, Sherringham, Yorke, Keane, Schmeichel - All top class players when they arrived at United so, by your standards for Wenger, this is irrelevant.

 

Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Neville were an exceptional crop of youngsters coming through at the same time, yes under a brilliant manager. But this wasn't exactly a regular thing at United, Ferguson obviously bought a huge number of 'top quality' players during his time in charge, in fact far more than Wenger ever has.

 

Ferguson was a far better manager overall than Wenger, obviously, but in terms of ability to develop young players you're not going to convince me Ferguson was better.

[Daz_The_Ram]

Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Neville.

All European Cup winners at the same club they were brought through at, and all brought through, and managed to that glory by one man. I might add ... ALL British. How many European honours have Wenger's youngsters won together in the same side?

I accept your comments with regard to Petit and Vieira ... that was my oversight and I acknowledge it having looked at my post again...

The rest of the list however is just indicative of a man who has severe limitations when it comes to turning youngsters into true winners when they are with him. All wonderful talents, all hailed as the next big thing, all amounted to absolutely nothing. The list could have another twenty players on it. He grooms players for the most part to be lightweight, fancy dans, painting pretty pictures with the ball and not developing the mentality of winners.

As I say ... ask any Arsenal fan who was there at the match last night ... they will tell you the exact same thing. It depends what you want from footballers i suppose ... I will always prefer winners.

Wenger v Ferguson? Medals on the table please. Let's not forget that Ferguson won two European trophies with Aberdeen...an unfashionable Scottish side, made up of young home grown lads.

Ferguson ... 49 trophies.

Wenger... 17 trophies.

 

[Daaave]

Not sure I ever heard anyone call Aliadiere, Lupoli, Barazite, Sanogo, Bendtner or Senderos the next big thing. Think probably we'll just have to agree to disagree on his record with developing youngsters.

 

As I said in my last post, I agree that Ferguson was undoubtedly a better manager. Sadly, for me Wenger rather lost the plot when he seemed to forget what made his invincibles so good and started trying to build pretty teams that completely lack the physical presence players like Vieira or Petit would bring. So in that sense I actually totally agree with you.

 

I had some sympathy with him up until a couple of years ago, I admired his ability to build competitive, if not quite world class, teams without spending huge sums. But since he started splashing money around on yet more flair players without addressing the glaring holes in his side that sympathy has all but dried up.

[Daz_The_Ram]

Great post Dave and a top debate ... nice to have one without someone losing it completely and taking their ball home ... spot on. I literally have no idea why he seems to have totally shyed away fro the physical power that once won him plenty of silverware.

Even Vermalen hasn't been replaced. I live in the area as I mention, and personally, it is healthy for the community when the Arsenal are doing well ... that is why I find Wenger so infuriating! he just keeps winding them up!! ;-)