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Nigel in, Board in


trekkie_ram

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next 3 games are against very poor teams, would be dissapointed if we lose 1 of them.

It'd be nice to be able to look at those fixtures and not see a likely defeat until Leeds/Cardiff aways.

Unfortunately, knowing what Derby are like away especially, I see Donny as bigger challenge than it should be.

Watford, I don't think they have much of a goal threat to us.

6pts from next 3 I expect.

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Sorry is that the Hulse that was benched in favour of Porter.

And Commons who we offered a good contract to (meeting his demands) showing we can afford those types of players?

Thought so

I think you'll find that the wage structure has changed dramatically since then- also the point I was making s that we don't have that kind of quality at the club any more for financial reasons. Therefore it is pointless comparing that season with this one. Christ, it really is like banging your head against the wall on here sometimes. Any chance the mods could build an IQ test into the registration form?

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Surely you'll admit that the football is getting better Wilko? I know it's only in patches but some of the stuff I've seen this year has been really good, fast flowing stuff.

I agree we dont do it anywhere near often enough, but we're doing it more often every season.

Progress will come with consistency, consistency will come with experience, experience will come with money, which we dont have, or with time which we do.

Unless we've got a spare 4-5 mill lying around, I'm prepared to wait for the lads to blossom.

I don't see the football getting better. We had a patch of great football at the start of last season where I was very happy. I thought things had clicked, we had an attacking team playing free flowing football. But that season we ended up reverting to 'grinding out results' I wasn't happy and the rest of that season I thought we were awful. This season I've not seen anything that is better than past managers produced. Most of the time it's boring football, a lack of attacking creativity and most of the time boring. We struggle to make chances and often at home we make less chances than the away team. We have a glimpse of good football, a brief passing move, 20 mins when we're on top and create some chances. Those glimpse are too brief and too fleeting for me to be happy or excited about where we're heading.

As for bringing on youth. It's great and having good academy's are the way forward. But without progress and showing these youngsters that there's a reason to stay here then we'll end up like Crewe who produce good players but never move forward themselves. A 10 year plan in football is ridiculous, who at the club would be happy with that? Bennett? He would be in his prime when we predict we may get promoted.

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I think you'll find that the wage structure has changed dramatically since then- also the point I was making s that we don't have that kind of quality at the club any more for financial reasons. Therefore it is pointless comparing that season with this one. Christ, it really is like banging your head against the wall on here sometimes. Any chance the mods could build an IQ test into the registration form?

Reverting to insults - A true sign of an intelligent and reasoned debate by a person confident in what they're saying.

I would reply but wouldn't want you to have to humour someone with such a low IQ.

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I think you'll find that the wage structure has changed dramatically since then- also the point I was making s that we don't have that kind of quality at the club any more for financial reasons. Therefore it is pointless comparing that season with this one. Christ, it really is like banging your head against the wall on here sometimes. Any chance the mods could build an IQ test into the registration form?

You know what sod it I will respond.

So 09/10 season should be taken out of the equation due to two players. Commons played 20 games that entire season scoring 3 goals. In the 10/11 season he played 26 times and scored 13 goals. So he actually played more in the season we finished lower down. But let's ignore that eh?

Bring on the IQ test I say.

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Reverting to insults - A true sign of an intelligent and reasoned debate by a person confident in what they're saying.

I would reply but wouldn't want you to have to humour someone with such a low IQ.

Just getting bored of repeating myself over and over- you are either deliberately ignoring my point or incapable of understanding it. Either way, I think I'll leave it there.

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You know what sod it I will respond.

So 09/10 season should be taken out of the equation due to two players. Commons played 20 games that entire season scoring 3 goals. In the 10/11 season he played 26 times and scored 13 goals. So he actually played more in the season we finished lower down. But let's ignore that eh?

Bring on the IQ test I say.

Once again, ignoring my points- look at my post. It says that they were two of many players on stupid wages. I am trying to point out that we are getting the same amount of points roughly as were when we were spending a lot more on wages and in debt. I really don't know why you are struggling with this.

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Once again, ignoring my points- look at my post. It says that they were two of many players on stupid wages. I am trying to point out that we are getting the same amount of points roughly as were when we were spending a lot more on wages and in debt. I really don't know why you are struggling with this.

I'm not struggling with it it's just a moot point. We lost a lot of poor players on high wages. Take the wages out of the equation in terms of who we lost as it doesn't matter what they were on just how good they were and the fact is they weren't that good. If we'd lost a team full of stars then fair enough, fair play to Nigel I'd be saying. But just because Jewell paid them large wages doesn't make them good or that we'd suffer without them. Nigel shouldn't be judged by how much the previous manager paid poor players. Why don't you understand that?!

You made reference to two players, Commons and Hulse. You also said others, but you singled out those two. The fact Commons played less that season than he did the season after, yet this seems irrelevant to you. Commons now isn't a factor it's the money we spent on the other rubbish players.

A manager is judged by how he uses the finances available to him, not how much the previous manager wasted on players.

Let me try and make it simple. I'm a manager of a warehouse and pay someone people a stupid amount of money to make boxes and they weren't good at it. I get sacked and a new manager comes in. He's told to get rid of my rubbish box making guys and get a new one in and get them for less. He gets new ones in and pays them more sensible wages yet they're still rubbish and the warehouse is still poor in its performance. Is the new guy a great manager just because I was even worse?

Other than Hulse and Commons who have we lost that can justify the 'we've lost players in lots of money' argument holding water? Judge the players on quality not how much they were paid. Jewell could have got Jason Lee out of retirement and paid him a ton of money. When the next guy comes in the loss of Jason Lee can't be an excuse just because he was on a lot of money.

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Once again, ignoring my points- look at my post. It says that they were two of many players on stupid wages. I am trying to point out that we are getting the same amount of points roughly as were when we were spending a lot more on wages and in debt. I really don't know why you are struggling with this.

Ok we're getting into an argument and I don't want to argue with people on this forum.

Can I just ask then who did we lose between 09/10 season and the 10/11 season that means the 09/10 season is ignored due to the quality players we had at our disposal in comparison to the 10/11 season?

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PistoldPete2

One win in TEN and some fans think its Christmas. Clough OUT

Really?

Well weve won 5 since Boxing day so maybe it is Christmas still.

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PistoldPete2

We've had two good results, and hopefully we have a run of good results now. However happy I am about that I still don't think we have the right set up. We have once again gone on 3 runs where we have failed to win in 5 or more games. This has happened in every season Nigel has been in charge.

09/10 - 2 runs without winning in 5 games (plus many of other of 4 without a win) - finished 14th (53 scored, 63 conceded -10 dif)

10/11 - 4 runs without winning in 5 games (runs of no win in 6, 5, 9 and 5) - finished 19th (58 scored, 71 conceded -13 dif)

11/12 - so far 3 runs (runs of no win in 5, 6 and 8) - currently 14th (37 scored, 45 conceded, -8 dif)

and most of the results in these runs are losses.

I'm cheering and shouting as much as the next person when we win or score. But 2 good results doesn't make me forget other stuff. I don't see the progression. We aren't playing any better, are league finishes aren't any better, our goal difference isn't any better.

mind you what was the wage bill in Cloughs first season and what is it now? If we get more points than 2009/10 and yet more points than that year then that is progress isnt it?

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mind you what was the wage bill in Cloughs first season and what is it now? If we get more points than 2009/10 and yet more points than that year then that is progress isnt it?

If we get more points than 09/10 then as I've said, as long as its not just by a point or two, I would consider it progress. Players on high wages doesn't automatically make them good. If people were on here saying that Nigel had nothing to work with in comparison to other managers in this league, then that's a different arguement that (although I don't necessarily agree) I understand. But have a high wage bill of poor players beforer he turns up doesn't mean jack.

My last example to try and explain what I'm saying.

Say Mancini used the Man City money to buy mostly poor players but spent a lot on them and paid them large wages. They then finish mid table. The owners say that it's not good enough and rightly sack him. They employ Nigel as manager and say, look we're going to have to get rid of all these expensive players who aren't very good and we're not doing that again so you'll have to work within a budget on par with the likes of Sunderland and Stoke. Those players go and Nigel finishes lower than Mancini did and lower than Sunderland and Stoke. Is he regarded as doing well because of what Mancini did before him?

Argue that he hasn't got mid table funds, fine I get that. But to argue he's doing well just because the previous manager did so poorly with more money is ridiculous.

If someone can argue we lost a load of great players then again, I will understand that arguement. But this does not make sense.

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Oh ok, fair enough then. I still think we've got enough games left to beat 56 points though. Looking down the remaining fixtures:

Watford (H)

Forest (H)

Doncaster (A)

Brighton (A)

Palace (H)

Bristol City (A)

Ipswich (H)

Leeds (A)

Cardiff (A)

Middlesbrough (H)

Pompey (A)

Peterborough (H)

The only ones in which I don't really fancy our chances are Brighton (A), Cardiff (A) and Boro (H), and even they are games in which we could snatch a point. Who thought we'd get anything at Brum? Perhaps we might struggle at home to Palace if the backlog of games catches up with us, but I'd have thought we'd get something from it.

Wow, we could do quite well for the rest of the season.

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I think you'll find that the wage structure has changed dramatically since then- also the point I was making s that we don't have that kind of quality at the club any more for financial reasons. Therefore it is pointless comparing that season with this one. Christ, it really is like banging your head against the wall on here sometimes. Any chance the mods could build an IQ test into the registration form?

One thing I said at half time yesterday, was we were the better side but nothing special. Savies showed quality in the second half though, something we've missed imo.

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If we get more points than 09/10 then as I've said, as long as its not just by a point or two, I would consider it progress. Players on high wages doesn't automatically make them good. If people were on here saying that Nigel had nothing to work with in comparison to other managers in this league, then that's a different arguement that (although I don't necessarily agree) I understand. But have a high wage bill of poor players beforer he turns up doesn't mean jack.

My last example to try and explain what I'm saying.

Say Mancini used the Man City money to buy mostly poor players but spent a lot on them and paid them large wages. They then finish mid table. The owners say that it's not good enough and rightly sack him. They employ Nigel as manager and say, look we're going to have to get rid of all these expensive players who aren't very good and we're not doing that again so you'll have to work within a budget on par with the likes of Sunderland and Stoke. Those players go and Nigel finishes lower than Mancini did and lower than Sunderland and Stoke. Is he regarded as doing well because of what Mancini did before him?

Argue that he hasn't got mid table funds, fine I get that. But to argue he's doing well just because the previous manager did so poorly with more money is ridiculous.

If someone can argue we lost a load of great players then again, I will understand that arguement. But this does not make sense.

Ok mate, lets not argue- I am sorry I questioned your IQ. We obviously have very different opinions on what progress is. Unfortunately for you it means that I am probably going to be more or less content at the end of the season with your good self considerably less so. If we break the amount of points from Cloughies first season then I hope we can agree that this is progress. Either way we both have the rams at heart and I hope to lock horns with you again in the future!

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Oh ok, fair enough then. I still think we've got enough games left to beat 56 points though. Looking down the remaining fixtures:

Watford (H)

Forest (H)

Doncaster (A)

Brighton (A)

Palace (H)

Bristol City (A)

Ipswich (H)

Leeds (A)

Cardiff (A)

Middlesbrough (H)

Pompey (A)

Peterborough (H)

The only ones in which I don't really fancy our chances are Brighton (A), Cardiff (A) and Boro (H), and even they are games in which we could snatch a point. Who thought we'd get anything at Brum? Perhaps we might struggle at home to Palace if the backlog of games catches up with us, but I'd have thought we'd get something from it.

Anything less than 18 points out of that lot and I'd be dissapointed.

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