G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Not so, going in to administration under the current preferred football creditor rules is unfair and costs small business enterprises hundreds of thousands of pounds in unpaid bills by football clubs. Try having a small business and being taken for a few grand and then tell your family that there's no summer holiday because Leicester, Leeds or another club haven't paid you and you are only going to get 14p in the pound or 5p in the pound being proposed by the administrator. Sorry but you are so wide of the mark in your statement that I am astounded. The public seem to have limited knowledge of what administration means to so many small companies and the impact on their families. HMRC also tend to miss out on a few million in taxes, but the impact on small business people and their families is far greater. I know exactly what administration means and I am not doubting that small companies often end up on the receiving end, however, at least administration shows a willingness to try and get things back on track as opposed to carrying on trading and running up more and more debts that will not be paid. The preferred football creditor rules are unfair, I agree on this point. So do you think DCFC should have had 10 points deducted when they went into administration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 According to the owner, Rangers owe £45M in unpaid tax - as I understood, the £9M in the admin application was HMRC forcing the issue so that they could appoint the administrator rather than Rangers. White also mentioned the £75M owed to HMRC as unpaid tax + the penalties and fines that they knew about (possibly more). Apparently, the administrator is also trying to find the whereabouts of £24M from advance season ticket sales that seems to have been 'mislaid' in the accounts....'fit and proper' is a farce and doesn't stop unfit owners - if you saw the recent documentary, there was an example of a foreign consortium looking to buy clubs and stating (on a hidden camera) that they would simply find someone 'clean' to face up the bid and ensure that they were seen as acceptable..... The £45million is from some dodgy tax scheme and is currently under dispute, if HMR&C win the case the fines and penalties on top of this would take the amount up to around £75million, that is how I have read the situation, please correct me if I am wrong though. The £9million is current year PAYE which has not been paid. How a chairman can siphon off season ticket receipts to a private bank account without anyone spotting is beyond me! I understand that Craig Whyte was banned from being a director for 7 years in 2000, surely this would ring alarm bells straight away? Is it possible that we have found a football association even more incompetent than ours?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 So do you think DCFC should have had 10 points deducted when they went into administration? It was the parent company that went into administration, not the club. Hence, no points deducted. For a club to be deducted points the club has to be in administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 . No it was for a short period and a technicality to allow a takeover. I assume a 20 min Administration period would have not been necessary at all. Just a easier way to achieve takeover. Sorry point was not aimed at you but anyway, you agree that a straight 10 point deduction for going into administraion is not fair then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It was the parent company that went into administration, not the club. Hence, no points deducted. For a club to be deducted points the club has to be in administration. Thanks for clearing that up, was not aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Ram Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 G Star, Derby are no different from any other club, other than they happen to be the one which we both support. If Derby go in to administration then they should be treated exactly the same. The problem in football is created by the preferred football creditor rule, quite clearly this encourages people in the world of football to extend lines of credit again, thus allowing clubs to carry on as though nothing has happened, apart from a 10 point penalty. In normal business, because most creditors suffer, this means those those in that industry suffer as well, so this makes it more difficult to carry on in the same way as you had prior to administration. This means that you have to get your house in order and proove to those extending credit terms to you that you are trustworthy and will conduct your business differently in the future. In football there is no incentive for this to happen as those providing credit lines know that they are protected. I would suggest that very few companies end up paying everything back as a result of entering administration, I have never personally come across this in 25 years in business, it normally means you get 15p to 30p in the pound if you're lucky. From football clubs entering administration the settlement figure is normally far lower than this therefore an ammendment to the creditor rules would be a step in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 G Star, Derby are no different from any other club, other than they happen to be the one which we both support. If Derby go in to administration then they should be treated exactly the same. The problem in football is created by the preferred football creditor rule, quite clearly this encourages people in the world of football to extend lines of credit again, thus allowing clubs to carry on as though nothing has happened, apart from a 10 point penalty. In normal business, because most creditors suffer, this means those those in that industry suffer as well, so this makes it more difficult to carry on in the same way as you had prior to administration. This means that you have to get your house in order and proove to those extending credit terms to you that you are trustworthy and will conduct your business differently in the future. In football there is no incentive for this to happen as those providing credit lines know that they are protected. I would suggest that very few companies end up paying everything back as a result of entering administration, I have never personally come across this in 25 years in business, it normally means you get 15p to 30p in the pound if you're lucky. From football clubs entering administration the settlement figure is normally far lower than this therefore an ammendment to the creditor rules would be a step in the right direction. I agree with everything you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 The £45million is from some dodgy tax scheme and is currently under dispute, if HMR&C win the case the fines and penalties on top of this would take the amount up to around £75million, that is how I have read the situation, please correct me if I am wrong though. The £9million is current year PAYE which has not been paid. How a chairman can siphon off season ticket receipts to a private bank account without anyone spotting is beyond me! I understand that Craig Whyte was banned from being a director for 7 years in 2000, surely this would ring alarm bells straight away? Is it possible that we have found a football association even more incompetent than ours?! you may well be correct - I was just repeating what the owner said on sky sports - as far as the £24M goes, it seems to be a third party (Ticketus) paying rangers a sum of money in advance of ticket sales - I'm not sure that there is any suggestion that the owner siphoned the money off, just that the accounts have been made so complex that the administrators don't currently know where the money has gone.... The dodgy tax scheme is apparently a vehicle used by a number of premier league (and ex-premier league) clubs to allow money to be paid to 'overseas' players without them having to pay tax - HMRC see this as illegal (which it certainly sounds) and so there could be some significant tax bills for a number of English clubs in the near future.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 you may well be correct - I was just repeating what the owner said on sky sports - as far as the £24M goes, it seems to be a third party (Ticketus) paying rangers a sum of money in advance of ticket sales - I'm not sure that there is any suggestion that the owner siphoned the money off, just that the accounts have been made so complex that the administrators don't currently know where the money has gone.... The dodgy tax scheme is apparently a vehicle used by a number of premier league (and ex-premier league) clubs to allow money to be paid to 'overseas' players without them having to pay tax - HMRC see this as illegal (which it certainly sounds) and so there could be some significant tax bills for a number of English clubs in the near future.... I would imagine £24million would be pretty easy to spot in the company bank account! I must have read that it had been siphoned off on another site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSaint Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 It was the parent company that went into administration, not the club. Hence, no points deducted. For a club to be deducted points the club has to be in administration. hi, Saints fan in peace here. Just linked to this thread on our site. we have had a thread running since july 2009 about our 'neighbours' and all their shenanigans. if you had the time to read it and get through the humour, hatred and feckwittery you find some interesting facts. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?14620-Pompey-Takeover-Saga There are many views out there and, in our particular case, it can easily be put down to just sheer blind hatred etc but that reason does wear thin after over 1,100 pages! Saints had their Parent company go into administration. The FL gave us a ten point penalty and when we argued the toss they told us that we and the parent company were 'inextricably linked'. Not only did we get the minus 10 but we were relegated anyway (because we had played youngsters and loaned out high earners) and the minus 10 carried over for us start in L1 the following season. PFC have fallen into the grip of various crooks and charlatans who have passed the club around like a toy. that toy is now broken and is not of serviceable value. It might be no surprise to you that several of the previous 6 owners have connections, either through litigation against each other or business deals. Each time it gets sold the owner lends the purchaser the money (read our thread and you'll see how often the figure of £17m gets a mention) with a debenture over the club/ground/surrounding land. The club has gone into Admin on this occasion because of the HMRC WUP. The club had, as of Friday, not even started to pay it's CVA from 2010! Parachute payments ahd been used to keep the club running and pay off football creditors (aaaaah! that rule). In 2010, after the agreed CVA, there was a wage ceiling set for players of £10k per week. (Tal Ben Haim is still there on an alleged £38k/wk) so they sold Marc Wilson to Stoke (his PFC salary was £10k/wk). In return stoke let them have Liam Lawrence (£19k/wk) and dave Kitson (£21k/wk) plus a cash adjustment!! hardly within the salary cap was it? I believe that the club (Balram Chanrai 9who seixed the club back from CSI)) wanted Andrew Androniko to be their Administrator again. the hope, I think, was to further dilute their obligation to the 2010 CVA with a new one. Andronikou is administrator for CSI, see how incestuous this is? which is why HMRC wanted trevor Birch (of PFK) as Admin. He himself said in court that he would not work with Andronikou as he had 'a different view of compliance'. Back to saints Administration. we dropped on dead lucky, a billionaire bought us, He negotiated with the stadium mortgage holder (Aviva/norwich union) and the business Account Banker (Barclays) and they agreed for a settlement which they were happy with. all other creditors, local businesses etc were paid in full. Saints came out of administration without a CVA. The billionaire tried to fight the minus ten points but Lord minnieHawHaw told us that if we contested it we would never get our golden share back. I hope this helps make you aware not only of PFC's plight but oft the way they work, in Admin while paying high wages to attract good quality players. while the likes of other clubs have their fans watching 'dross' (one comment above). derby, millwall, doncaster, donny are all doing this but not PFC. This minus 10 might well have no effect on them come the end of the season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just out of interest, what type of local businesses are affected by the club going into admin? I see this phrase bandied about quite a lot, but (and especially the case with us as we've contracted out the catering to a non-local business) I can't actually think of who would be affected, window cleaners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSaint Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Maybe a few words from Keith Hill, Barnsley manager, sum it up more directly than I did? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2103169/Barnsley-boss-Hill-Ive-got-sympathy-Pompey.html#ixzz1mm0nQCbJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CumbrianRam Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Keith Hill [size=1][size=4]They've recruited players that I can't afford to recruit and they are paying the type of wages that I could only dream about paying, so how can I have sympathy for any football club who are competitive against me in a league when I haven't got the same advantages as Portsmouth?[/size][/size] Spot on, really hope they do down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSaint Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just out of interest, what type of local businesses are affected by the club going into admin? I see this phrase bandied about quite a lot, but (and especially the case with us as we've contracted out the catering to a non-local business) I can't actually think of who would be affected, window cleaners? In PFCs case, where do I start? The young cancer victim who had an outsized cheque presented to him on the pitch? The st. john's Ambulance? Various Local Charities? 'Terry' the local builder and fan? £50k for work around the ground! Electric, Gas, etc etc etc as yul bryner once said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSaint Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Even Bishops the Printers who do their programmes! They took FA cup tickets as part payment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSaint Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/drivetime/blog/2012-02-17/poll-ten-points-enough-deduction-portsmouth-entering-administration Ok, apologies for what may be perceived as spamming! I'll lay off now as I think the word is spreading about these crooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamOfKansas Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Looking at English Football sometimes. I find myself thanking god that American sports(particularly the NFL) run under a well organized, carefully controlled socialist structure. We don't have problems with cheating in the business aspect of our sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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