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Who's good enough?


DerbyRam!

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about 4 players there which would be in the team if we went up.

We would need-

1. A Matt Jarvis/Seb Larsson type midfielder

2. A Claude Makalele type CDM

3. SESSEGNON- be the player i would sign if we had 10 million to blow on ONE player

4. speedy overlapping LB

5. Zamora/Kevin Davies (except less of a dirty fouling cnut) type

6. Kevin Doyle/Shane Long/Asamoah Gyan/Kenwyne Jones quality forward.

adds up to about 15 million plus in spending.

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Fielding was 3rd choice at a relegation threatened Blackburn last season.. Has he improved that much that he's now the top dog in the NPC and could get games ahead of the likes of Henessey (Wolves), Paddy Kenny (QPR) and Ruddy (Norwich)

Brayford isnt even the best RB in the league, how would he get regular games in the PL? Maybe in the future, or as a backup.. Barker and Shackell have no chance IMO.. Promising players? I thought this was a question about who is PL quality.. Being a youngster for a PL club is different to being a PL player.. The same goes for Derby.. I really do get worried about some people on here.

And what off the ball play do you see that I don't? Minimal.. None that is relevant anyway. As we don't pass it out from the back our 'off the ball movement' comes from those in attacking positions only.. Which I can see everything.

Look Bris Old Fruit, I am not one of those on here who don't give any value to what your opinions are, just because you only see the game on your computer screen and don't get to see the whole pitch, and I know that you have extra super speed broadband because you were commenting on a game the other week before it was even on line. The England team management seem to rate our goalkeeper and they have possibly seen him live. I think Brayford is definitely in the top one in the Championship.

Unless you are a subscriber to Prozone I am pretty sure that you only see what the cameraman points at, which is either the immediate are surrounding the ball or an amusing moment in the crowd. I watch a lot of live football and see a lot on the TV, believe me Mr Bris, it is not quite the same.

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Are you serious? This squad has been outclassed by half of the NPC sides we've come up against let alone the PL.. Against the top 6 this season we've been easily outclassed in virtually every department and it's a miracle how we've come away with 8 points from them.

It's one stage making the top 6 in the NPC, then another to make the PL, then another to stay there.. We currently have no players that would get into a PL side of 17th or above.. None.

I'm deadly serious.

Swansea probably didn't think they had many/any prem players, but they obviously do.

So what do you do then, Bris? Sack everyone that took us up? Name one succesful side to be promoted that did that?

I'm not saying we'd definitely stay up, I'm saying we'd get more than 11 points - as it goes I think we have a stronger squad in certain areas than we did that season.

'We've been outclassed in every department' against clubs we've faced in the top 6 - well how have we got the points then? It's only called a fluke for so long.

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I'm deadly serious.

Swansea probably didn't think they had many/any prem players, but they obviously do.

So what do you do then, Bris? Sack everyone that took us up? Name one succesful side to be promoted that did that?

I'm not saying we'd definitely stay up, I'm saying we'd get more than 11 points - as it goes I think we have a stronger squad in certain areas than we did that season.

'We've been outclassed in every department' against clubs we've faced in the top 6 - well how have we got the points then? It's only called a fluke for so long.

I think people are mis-understanding the OP..

Why would I sack everyone that took us up.. If they took us up, it means they're good enough for a promotion side and they should have a crack at the PL.. This team is 9th, and will struggle to finish in the top half.. We're not a promotion team, nor a top 6 team.. So why do you think I'm stating that these players in this squad aren't good enough for a regular place in a 17th+ PL side..

Lets just change the question shall we.. How many of Crystal Palaces starting 11 could survive in the PL ie. be a regular PL player for a team not getting relegated? As we're pretty much on the same level as them.

Let me guess, their GK, LB, CB, DM and possibly a few youngsters..

And if you're a part of a relegation team then you're clearly not PL class.. Half of Blackpools squad isn't PL class for example.

This is irrelevant anyway, as you're getting way ahead of yourselves as this team isn't getting promoted.. I bet half of the people thinking about our players as PL standard were the same as those saying half of them weren't NPC standard when we lost 5 on the trot.

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Fielding - yes, but was better when he first came than now.

Brayford - Probably is. Deffo will be good enough in time.

Barker - Not for me. Premiership strikers ask a lot of different questions. Biggest difference

between Champ teams and PL teams is the strikers. Good enough to get us up

Shackell - Maybe when at his best with a good partner

Roberts - no. I like him but, no

Bavies - no

Green - no, not quite. Almost.

Bailey - Almost. Will be with experience

Hendrick - likely to end up like Bailey.

Ward - Just about. Needs to make better decisions but he's still young enough to learn.

Ball - not yet!

Robinson - No. Maybe one day but I think this is his level

S. Davies - no

Cywka - just about. Needs lots of work and coaching

OB - no. I thought Nyatanga had more promise. But who can say for sure.

Bryson - not yet. Maybe end up like Green? An 'almost'?

Everyone else struggles to get in our team so it'd have to be a no.

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I think people are mis-understanding the OP..

Why would I sack everyone that took us up.. If they took us up, it means they're good enough for a promotion side and they should have a crack at the PL.. This team is 9th, and will struggle to finish in the top half.. We're not a promotion team, nor a top 6 team.. So why do you think I'm stating that these players in this squad aren't good enough for a regular place in a 17th+ PL side..

Lets just change the question shall we.. How many of Crystal Palaces starting 11 could survive in the PL ie. be a regular PL player for a team not getting relegated? As we're pretty much on the same level as them.

Let me guess, their GK, LB, CB, DM and possibly a few youngsters..

And if you're a part of a relegation team then you're clearly not PL class.. Half of Blackpools squad isn't PL class for example.

This is irrelevant anyway, as you're getting way ahead of yourselves as this team isn't getting promoted.. I bet half of the people thinking about our players as PL standard were the same as those saying half of them weren't NPC standard when we lost 5 on the trot.

Why aren't we a top half team, and why will we struggle to finish in the top half? That's just an opinion, not a fact - I think we'll be well in to the top half and have every chance of finishing in the play offs - I thought we would at the start of the season and I do now, so it's not rose tinted now we've started winning. I'm not getting ahead of myself, as you suggest. Don't confuse that with me thinking we will definitely get in the top six - I just think we have a chance. The table says so.

'If you're in a relegation team you're clearly not PL class' - what a load of rubbish. Steven Fletcher, Kevin Doyle, Stephen Hunt, Charlie Adam, Paddy Kenny, Joe Cole - all played in relegation teams, all now playing in the top flight (Cole in France - would many argue he couldn't play in the Premier League?) - there's loads more, that's just a few.

Not sure of the relevance of the Palace point..

I'm sure, when Swansea got promoted, they didn't think they had a chance given the playing squad, but they're making it work. I'm not saying we would, I'm just saying I'd keep hold of most of the current players, and just bring in a few quality, experienced players as well. And I think we'd amass more than 11 points.

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Why aren't we a top half team, and why will we struggle to finish in the top half? That's just an opinion, not a fact - I think we'll be well in to the top half and have every chance of finishing in the play offs - I thought we would at the start of the season and I do now, so it's not rose tinted now we've started winning. I'm not getting ahead of myself, as you suggest. Don't confuse that with me thinking we will definitely get in the top six - I just think we have a chance. The table says so.

'If you're in a relegation team you're clearly not PL class' - what a load of rubbish. Steven Fletcher, Kevin Doyle, Stephen Hunt, Charlie Adam, Paddy Kenny, Joe Cole - all played in relegation teams, all now playing in the top flight (Cole in France - would many argue he couldn't play in the Premier League?) - there's loads more, that's just a few.

Here here agree you could add Norwich and wolves and possibly Stoke when they went up into that mix as well

Not sure of the relevance of the Palace point..

I'm sure, when Swansea got promoted, they didn't think they had a chance given the playing squad, but they're making it work. I'm not saying we would, I'm just saying I'd keep hold of most of the current players, and just bring in a few quality, experienced players as well. And I think we'd amass more than 11 points.

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I disagree on Swansea Asanovic. If you were to say Norwich and QPR I'd agree.

Swansea I always thought would do alright. They have looked a team of quality for a few seasons and I have no idea why they struggled to go up.

QPR and Norwich (to a lesser degree with Norwich) were extremely well organised by cracking managers. Tactically spot on, but to watch them play you'd perhaps not see the same quality as you would from Swansea (except for from matchwinners like Taraabt)

I think now, Swansea are better equipped and may finish in the top 12. QPR however are realising Taraabt has found it much tougher and their organisation is under much more pressure.

I really think you can get promoted simply by being well organised and having a Commons. Where in the PL you need to be able to play a bit. Each and every player.

I think Derby are getting closer. But need much more quality. I reckon we could get promoted with this team. But like QPR it'd be down to organisation rather than the quality I'd like to see.

It's all opinions though 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

How did Swansea not go up automatically?

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PistoldPete2

Are you serious? This squad has been outclassed by half of the NPC sides we've come up against let alone the PL.. Against the top 6 this season we've been easily outclassed in virtually every department and it's a miracle how we've come away with 8 points from them.

It's one stage making the top 6 in the NPC, then another to make the PL, then another to stay there.. We currently have no players that would get into a PL side of 17th or above.. None.

We played against Soton , CArdiff , Reading and the home game against Hull at home with seriously below strength teams. We were certainly not outclassed by West Ham in either game; I think the only reaosn West Ham won at their place was because our inhjured players were working their way back to fitness and tired second half. In the home game against West HAm the tables were turned, West Ham were the weakened side and it showed- we outclassed them.

It still a big step up to the Prenier League but the other thing to remember is that we have beaten ALL Three teams that were playing in the Premier last saeon, West HAm, Blackpool and Brum, and deserved to win all those 3 games without a doubt.

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I disagree on Swansea Asanovic. If you were to say Norwich and QPR I'd agree.

Swansea I always thought would do alright. They have looked a team of quality for a few seasons and I have no idea why they struggled to go up.

QPR and Norwich (to a lesser degree with Norwich) were extremely well organised by cracking managers. Tactically spot on, but to watch them play you'd perhaps not see the same quality as you would from Swansea (except for from matchwinners like Taraabt)

I think now, Swansea are better equipped and may finish in the top 12. QPR however are realising Taraabt has found it much tougher and their organisation is under much more pressure.

I really think you can get promoted simply by being well organised and having a Commons. Where in the PL you need to be able to play a bit. Each and every player.

I think Derby are getting closer. But need much more quality. I reckon we could get promoted with this team. But like QPR it'd be down to organisation rather than the quality I'd like to see.

It's all opinions though 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

How did Swansea not go up automatically?

Actually, I take your point, and agree to some extent. I guess the point I was making was that QPR fans will have looked at Faurlin, Kenny, Taarabt and thought they had a good chance of surviving. As good as Swansea were last season, there wasn't much Premier League experience there (I don't think), and I doubt they'd have backed themselves to do as well as they have.

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I think people are mis-understanding the OP..

Why would I sack everyone that took us up.. If they took us up, it means they're good enough for a promotion side and they should have a crack at the PL.. This team is 9th, and will struggle to finish in the top half.. We're not a promotion team, nor a top 6 team.. So why do you think I'm stating that these players in this squad aren't good enough for a regular place in a 17th+ PL side..

Lets just change the question shall we.. How many of Crystal Palaces starting 11 could survive in the PL ie. be a regular PL player for a team not getting relegated? As we're pretty much on the same level as them.

Let me guess, their GK, LB, CB, DM and possibly a few youngsters..

And if you're a part of a relegation team then you're clearly not PL class.. Half of Blackpools squad isn't PL class for example.

This is irrelevant anyway, as you're getting way ahead of yourselves as this team isn't getting promoted.. I bet half of the people thinking about our players as PL standard were the same as those saying half of them weren't NPC standard when we lost 5 on the trot.

Demba Ba? Scott Parker? Charlie Adams? History is littered with examples of players that, despite being a member of a relegated team, are still considered Premier League class. What about Gary Cahill? Bolton are performing very poorly this year but the interest shown in him by Chelsea points to his talent as a player.

Self-belief plays such a huge part in football - one player playing in a poor team can be suddenly transformed by playing in a confident team.

Bris, there are times when I agree with your posts and other's when you leave me baffled (this is one of those times!) - the logic you use to back your views is badly thought out on occasions.

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Demba Ba? Scott Parker? Charlie Adams? History is littered with examples of players that, despite being a member of a relegated team, are still considered Premier League class. What about Gary Cahill? Bolton are performing very poorly this year but the interest shown in him by Chelsea points to his talent as a player.

Self-belief plays such a huge part in football - one player playing in a poor team can be suddenly transformed by playing in a confident team.

Bris, there are times when I agree with your posts and other's when you leave me baffled (this is one of those times!) - the logic you use to back your views is badly thought out on occasions.

If you read back on posts you would realise you've taken the wrong end of that quote.. That quote I was trying to say is you're not PL class if you've got relegated and not then been wanted by a PL club.. Hence why I said half of Blackpools squad as the likes of Adam and Vaughan (possibly DJ too) proved they were PL class..

I said before a top player even at an underperforming club will be wanted by someone higher up.. Like you say, Scott Parker, Demba Ba, Charlie Adam, Gary Cahill etc.. These are PL class.. But that's what I mentioned about Barker, not one team in the playoffs let alone the PL wanted him therefore no one can say he's PL class until he plays there and stays there.

I know people don't agree with what I say, I can live with that, I do find it funny when people jump all over my posts though and are quick to slam them without actually reading previous points.

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To be honest, there are about 12 teams in this league as good as each other, with a squad of players who might end up like Norwich (ie a team of **** players on paper, who had one good season together and now look like one of the better teams in the best league in the world).

It's down to circumstance, luck, and management.

Circumstance - we have more injuries than our rivals.

Luck - a number of our players are too young/unproven/unlucky with injuries to really prove themselves. Jamie Ward's career up to now has been a complete waste, he's three years behind where he could be.

Management - it's Clough's signings that has put us in this bracket of clubs and when the team's fit, he gets them playing extremely well. Some questionable tactical decisions have cost us points, and are all the injuries bad luck?

You don't even need all three of those to go well to go up.

People talk about getting out of this league as if whoever goes up has calculated it to perfection, had a manager who didn't put a foot wrong, had a team always destined to play in the world's best league and as if you're either a top 6 club or you aren't.

I profoundly disagree.

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Why aren't we a top half team, and why will we struggle to finish in the top half? That's just an opinion, not a fact - I think we'll be well in to the top half and have every chance of finishing in the play offs - I thought we would at the start of the season and I do now, so it's not rose tinted now we've started winning. I'm not getting ahead of myself, as you suggest. Don't confuse that with me thinking we will definitely get in the top six - I just think we have a chance. The table says so.

'If you're in a relegation team you're clearly not PL class' - what a load of rubbish. Steven Fletcher, Kevin Doyle, Stephen Hunt, Charlie Adam, Paddy Kenny, Joe Cole - all played in relegation teams, all now playing in the top flight (Cole in France - would many argue he couldn't play in the Premier League?) - there's loads more, that's just a few.

Not sure of the relevance of the Palace point..

I'm sure, when Swansea got promoted, they didn't think they had a chance given the playing squad, but they're making it work. I'm not saying we would, I'm just saying I'd keep hold of most of the current players, and just bring in a few quality, experienced players as well. And I think we'd amass more than 11 points.

First point I said players wanted by PL clubs can be classed as PL class despite relegation.. I knew you'd jump on that post, even though I mentioned a few posts before virtually the same thing as I'm writing now..

2nd point.. Crystal Palace and Derby are seprated by a couple of points, both overachieving this season IMO and both have no chance of a top 6 spot and will struggle to finish in the top half IMO.. So now, player for player, we're quite alike.. So how many of Palaces team are PL quality? If 4 or 5 of ours are, then I'm sure 4 or 5 of theirs are too..

Swansea missed out on the playoffs twice before by a matter of points and were in the playoffs throughout all of last season. We're feckin 9th, won 3 on the trot after losing 5 on the trot and were dire for the past 2 seasons.. Completely different scenarios, once again, you're getting waaaaaaaaaay ahead of yourselves.. Swanseas team last season was far better than our team this season.. Same for Norwich, same for QPR..

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First point I said players wanted by PL clubs can be classed as PL class despite relegation.. I knew you'd jump on that post, even though I mentioned a few posts before virtually the same thing as I'm writing now..

2nd point.. Crystal Palace and Derby are seprated by a couple of points, both overachieving this season IMO and both have no chance of a top 6 spot and will struggle to finish in the top half IMO.. So now, player for player, we're quite alike.. So how many of Palaces team are PL quality? If 4 or 5 of ours are, then I'm sure 4 or 5 of theirs are too..

Swansea missed out on the playoffs twice before by a matter of points and were in the playoffs throughout all of last season. We're feckin 9th, won 3 on the trot after losing 5 on the trot and were dire for the past 2 seasons.. Completely different scenarios, once again, you're getting waaaaaaaaaay ahead of yourselves.. Swanseas team last season was far better than our team this season.. Same for Norwich, same for QPR..

I get your point, it just makes me laugh how you're so quick to tell the world and his milkman than they're getting ahead of themselves, and giving your predictions as fact. I'm not even saying we will get in the play offs, just that we can. Just because not everyone picks the negatives out of every single situation like you, doesn't mind they're carried away. You throw 'no chance' around very casually. There's no chance I'll win the lottery tonight - because there's no draw. There's a chance Derby could be in the top six - because we're 9th.

The truth is, I would guess there's two handfuls of teams in our league that could finish in the top six, we're one of them. We might do it, we might not, but for now we're in the mix and there's absolutely nothing to suggest we shouldn't be at the end of the season.

I know our scenario is different to Swansea's, you've missed the point a little I think. All I was saying was, I imagine a thread like this 12 months ago was active on a Swansea forum, and I'm sure when they looked at their squad, they didn't think they had many Premiership quality footballers, but alot of them have stepped up. Some of our players could do the same, and that's why I'd buy a few strong, experienced players to accompany the current squad. That's all.

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We're not good enough away from home to get promoted or if we did, make a fist of staying up in the Prem. Nigels been here a while now and he still doesnt know how to play away from home. At home, from what i see and read, we can beat anyone in this division. Away from home, our game plan consists of defending for 90 minutes and try to nick a goal. The majority of the time, even at this level, it doesnt work yet Nigel still does it. At the top level we'd get found out even more.

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But if someone isn't a standout in this divison.. Then why would they be a standout at a top division?

It's like boxing, if you're not even a standout at regional boxing, then why would you all of a sudden be comfortable at national boxing?

The only way we will know is if they're regularly playing for a PL club or has shown ability during the times they've played at PL level for a club of 17th or above..

It goes back to the famous Barker is a top 6 standed NPC defender.. Well unless he regularly plays there or is wanted by someone in that group or above then this is untrue.

Which bit don't you agree on? You think any of our players could be a regular for a team placed 17th or above in the PL?

Or you don't think we were outplayed against Hull (both times) WHU (away) Boro, Reading, Cardiff and Southampton?

Fielding was 3rd choice at a relegation threatened Blackburn last season.. Has he improved that much that he's now the top dog in the NPC and could get games ahead of the likes of Henessey (Wolves), Paddy Kenny (QPR) and Ruddy (Norwich)

Brayford isnt even the best RB in the league, how would he get regular games in the PL? Maybe in the future, or as a backup.. Barker and Shackell have no chance IMO.. Promising players? I thought this was a question about who is PL quality.. Being a youngster for a PL club is different to being a PL player.. The same goes for Derby.. I really do get worried about some people on here.

And what off the ball play do you see that I don't? Minimal.. None that is relevant anyway. As we don't pass it out from the back our 'off the ball movement' comes from those in attacking positions only.. Which I can see everything.

WHY OH WHY? has this thread been started it has allowed Bris to come on here with his quotes that he states are correct and that he is right etc.

To start with against Cardiff, Hull home, Reading as you quote above how many of the current (the last 5 games) 1st was playing, there was Fielding, Shackell, Bryson, Ward and Robinson a magnificent 5 players who are 1st choice. That is probably one reason why we did not play so well. As when we had the injuries in October and November we struggles.

West Ham away we played a team consisting of Barker, Brayford, Bailey and Green all returning of lengthy injuries and hardly any match fitness plus Priskin up front who had not trained with the team again probably a good reason why after 60 minutes we tired and they scored.

Against Southampton completely disagree that we were outplayed that was a result which could have gone either way and a draw was a fair result.

You forget to mention Leeds and West Ham at home with a fit first team and the fact that we more than matched them both. Baring in mind that for a first time since October and November we did not have to mess around with the team due to injuries. Both are good teams played boxing day, New years day then a couple of days after against Hull. 3 teams in and around playoffs all playing well. I would possibly argue against Hull the players may be feeling a bit tired after the games against West Ham and Leeds. However did we conceede no, did we grind out a result yes these are all hall marks in my opinion that show a team is developing. How many times have we seen top teams win games that they probably don't deserve.

As for your method of judging whether a player is a top 6 player in championship or a premier league rated player is an old argument that no body agrees with I don't think. Yes Fielding was 3rd choice goal keeper at Blackburn. What you fail to mention is at the beginning of the season he was taken to the full England squad as Stockdale the 3rd choice England keeper was injured. So in your measuring players abilities this makes Frank Fielding the 4th best English keeper at this time, happy to have him. Also full credit to Clough for identifying him two seasons ago and also the club for buying him cheapily.

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