ramblur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hey Ramblur, great to have you back. Hope you are feeling ok! I thought what you wrote at the start of this thread was interesting: "To be fair to this administration (cue gasps all round) ,given numerous issues similar to this,I can fully understand their current low wage policy.This,in my opinion ,has led to the formation of a half decent base of a team,but it's the next stage that perplexes me.I think most would agree that we need an injection of real quality as the next step,but how do we achieve this if we aren't prepared to pay the going rate on wages for someone of real ability (even ignoring a fee).I believe that any real quality is going to have to come from the academy,hence the fast tracking of certain teenagers.I'm prepared for the long haul and remain fascinated (yet frustrated) by the whole business." I'm not sure we need a real injection of quality as the next step, especially if it's expensive. The squad as is has an outside chance of promotion. If the wages wasted on the likes of Pearson, Leacock, Bywater etc are used to bring in 3-4 signings of the quality of Barker/Shackell/Bryson over this and the next transfer window we'll be well set for a strong challenge next season. This will be operating at a sustainable level too. I'm sure Clough is the sort of manager who likes a team without egocentric superstars and a modest wage structure surely helps achieve this. Unless we unearth a real gem, the one position we may need to spend bigger on is the elusive goalscorer, but we seem to keep finding players this season who can do a job. I also think that the club is nicely placed for competing in the Premiership if it happens in the next 2-3 years. A team good enough to go up which is self-sustainable should be in a great position with a decent sized ground and the TV riches to come along too. If existing contracts are planed properly, then wage increases will be given after success and reduced with a relegation. Competing against long term Premiership teams reeling from FFP will only help us too. I can see where the current administration is averse to expensive signings,following their experiences of same.However,I don't think this should rule out expensive signings from the menu-it's all about a manager's ability to judge players.One decent signing might be more effective than a few more of the current crop (think Willie Carlin) .I also don't think that expensive signing necessarily equates to egocentric superstar.Danny Graham,for instance,was expensive yet he's the reverse of egocentric.You can still be sustainable on the revenue side of things if player investment is funded by new capital (the only thing hitting the revenue side of the divide being wages).I think some still think the owners have big money in reserve ,ready to splash out,but I doubt it's actually the case-the GSE loan appeared to be a big clue to me. I remember on the DET,posters were continually saying "wait until the next window" (which I think I likened to "Waiting for Godot") and there were some marvellous theories about leaking buckets.Unfortunately,I suspect that these posters may now be inspecting the old bucket and finding no leaks-the only problem being that when it's tipped,very little appears to be coming out! I can however see where you're coming from and respect your opinion-I just can't see total self sufficiency working without absolutely brilliant management -I hope I'm wrong,perhaps it might even turn out that we actually have a brilliant manager (who I support 100%,as before) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think we have a manager who understands that the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is more than just a saying, its the truth. In the same way that Pullis has got Stoke settled in the Premiership - I am by no means saying I like his type of football but - he has a team that all pull together in the same direction, work for each other and put the hard shift in. He hasn't got any real flair or superstar players (No way Stoke could attract them except for that break through first season like Wigan and Birmingham) so he doesnt relaly try. A bunch of hard working players with the same goal getting good solid results. Sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for the welcome,ariotofmyown-it was very remiss of me not to start my last post with this,so apologies.Thanks also to all others that I didn't reply to individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think we have a manager who understands that the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is more than just a saying, its the truth. In the same way that Pullis has got Stoke settled in the Premiership - I am by no means saying I like his type of football but - he has a team that all pull together in the same direction, work for each other and put the hard shift in. He hasn't got any real flair or superstar players (No way Stoke could attract them except for that break through first season like Wigan and Birmingham) so he doesnt relaly try. A bunch of hard working players with the same goal getting good solid results. Sound familiar? Hmm,physical,athletic seemed to work for them (seem to remember Pullis saying he deliberately took this route)-work ethic may be similar,but I'm not sure there are many more similarities (other than flair/superstar).Fuller was a pretty decent player,but can't for the life of me remember if he was in their promotion side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CumbrianRam Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Stoke spent £8,000,000 on Wilson Palacios and Pulis has him on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramesses Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 It's not easy to compare different managers and clubs. But I if Pulis was asked to swap Stoke owner Peter Coates for our GSE/owners combo then I bet his response would be ‘not bloody likely’. NC has had to deal with a different (and much tougher) set of financial constraints than Pulis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just read an article in the Sheffield Star. Sheffield united wages believed to be £15m and Ched Evans on 20k a week. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Pulis got Stoke promoted fairly cheaply but once there, the BET365 chap funded him. Some didn't work out, Dave Kitson £5m?, yet he trusted him enough to sign Kenwynne Jones on £40k a week etc. There is a chance that Clough, despite having no money to spend, puts together a squad that gets promoted. If that happens, would the board then show the same trust in Nige? Would they fund wages for us to compete, or would they just try and sell us asap? Oh well, we'll find out soon enough.... 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Just read an article in the Sheffield Star. Sheffield united wages believed to be £15m and Ched Evans on 20k a week. . I thought they were locked into a wages/turnover limit in league 1? Anyway, that level of wage is simply not sustainable without a Sugar Daddy. Glad to say those days appear to be slowly on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think we have a manager who understands that the saying "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" is more than just a saying, its the truth. In the same way that Pullis has got Stoke settled in the Premiership - I am by no means saying I like his type of football but - he has a team that all pull together in the same direction, work for each other and put the hard shift in. He hasn't got any real flair or superstar players (No way Stoke could attract them except for that break through first season like Wigan and Birmingham) so he doesnt relaly try. A bunch of hard working players with the same goal getting good solid results. Sound familiar? Stoke have some very good players, they would not have achieved what they have without real class and quality. In no way can you compare Stoke and Derby County, they are a top 10 club now we are nowhere near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Ram Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hi Ramblur - welcome back Much as I hesitate to disagree with someone of your stature, your 55% thing is a bit off. Firstly, at this stage the Championship FFP rules are only currently a proposal which has been accepted in principle, but the clubs meet again in February at Pride Park (funnily enough) to finalise and, if possible, agree the final details. Secondly, the current proposal is for clubs to limit their wages to their turnover - although 'turnover' has yet to be fully defined - nijections of share capital and parachute payments are, apparently sticking points. Thus, for next year, a club is limited to 100% of turnover. The proposal aslo includes a declaration of intent to gradually move the percentage downwards with the overall aim of 60% at some point in the future. It is my opinion that the rules will never actually come into force. There are too many owners who desperately want promotion and need to be free to use their cash (borrowed or not) to give their clubs an advantage. The definition has been agreed by the football league following the Cyprus conference last year. The expenditure of each club is also to be audited in line with that for clubs already governed by FFP, i.e. independantly audited. The detail is to be added to clarify sponsorship limits following a certain club in Manchester securing a £400m deal, although I can't see too many in the NPC obtaining deals at that level.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Stoke have some very good players, they would not have achieved what they have without real class and quality. In no way can you compare Stoke and Derby County, they are a top 10 club now we are nowhere near. Ianm? Are you masquerading as Ianw? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ph34r' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ph34r:' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks for link-I had that bookmarked ages ago,but for some reason it wouldn't display for me. It's because they closed down "therams.co.uk" domain, but the articles should still be available on "thisisderbyshire". If you still have some old links that don't work PM me and I should be able to find them for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Stoke have some very good players, they would not have achieved what they have without real class and quality. In no way can you compare Stoke and Derby County, they are a top 10 club now we are nowhere near. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> How the f@ck can you say stoke are a top 10 club!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> How the f@ck can you say stoke are a top 10 club!? I may be barking up the wrong tree, but maybe because of this? Pos Team Pld W D L F A GD Pts 8 Stoke City 20 8 5 7 22 31 -9 29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 <br />I may be barking up the wrong tree, but maybe because of this?<br />Pos Team Pld W D L F A GD Pts<br />8 Stoke City 20 8 5 7 22 31 -9 29<br />They may be positioned 8th, but they aren't a top 10 club. I'd still put Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland above them.<br />There's nothing between the rest in my opinion.<br />Based on your logic Norwich are also a top 10 club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It's because they closed down "therams.co.uk" domain, but the articles should still be available on "thisisderbyshire". If you still have some old links that don't work PM me and I should be able to find them for you. Thanks Martyn,I've been able to locate all the important stuff.One thing you might be able to help me with though -did the DET ever do an article on the 09/10 accounts,and if so ,do you have a link?.Must admit I heard a RD interview,but can't remember a DET piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks Martyn,I've been able to locate all the important stuff.One thing you might be able to help me with though -did the DET ever do an article on the 09/10 accounts,and if so ,do you have a link?.Must admit I heard a RD interview,but can't remember a DET piece. I thought I was going to have to disappoint you, but then, right at the last, I found it - it was tagged onto the end of another article as they sometimes do! Here's what I've found: - DCFC's news post: - [url=http://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10270~2322960,00.html]http://www.dcfc.co.u...2322960,00.html DET article (starts 2/3s down with "During the year ending June 2010"), in here it states player wages were £10.5m for that year and were standing at just over £9m on 2011/3/24: - [url=http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Cashback-offer-table-Rams-fans/story-11564984-detail/story.html]http://www.thisisder...tail/story.html And here is the discussion on the forum about them!: - [url= 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I thought I was going to have to disappoint you, but then, right at the last, I found it - it was tagged onto the end of another article as they sometimes do! Here's what I've found: - DCFC's news post: - [url=http://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10270~2322960,00.html]http://www.dcfc.co.u...2322960,00.html DET article (starts 2/3s down with "During the year ending June 2010"), in here it states player wages were £10.5m for that year and were standing at just over £9m on 2011/3/24: - [url=http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Cashback-offer-table-Rams-fans/story-11564984-detail/story.html]http://www.thisisder...tail/story.html And here is the discussion on the forum about them!: - [url= 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> Thanks for that first link Martyn,very helpful (wish you hadn't put the other one up though-I've no intention of going through any of that again!) So the commitment was for a top 6 finish then (which we might achieve,tbf).The wages bit intrigues me though,as the departures of Teale,McEveley,Connolly,Hendrie,Price,Hulse,Commons,Moxey (with Varney farmed out on loan) less the incomings of Bailey,Brayford,Martin,Cywka ,Bueno (loan) only resulted in a reduction of £1.5m (especially when you consider the employers' NIC savings)? Martin and Cywka would have featured to a certain extent in the £10.5m figure,but then there are only part year savings on Hulse ,Commons and Moxey.However,for the current season,the wages of these 3 will have fully disappeared,as will Bueno.Interesting. I've got to the stage where I'm finding it hard to remember who went when,so if I've got any of the above wrong,let me know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 One or two players have signed improved contracts, which may explain why the wage bill hasn't dropped as much as you'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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