Cwyka and Maguire

[Alex W]

It's all about finding a balance and right now, there isn't one with us. Work rate is heavily favoured over creativity and flair. There's a distinct lack of variety.

When you look at our successful sides in recent history, they had balance. For example in 06/07, the midfield 3 of David Jones, Seth Johnson and Matt Oakley was very well balanced because they all offered something different and something valuable i.e. Jones - technique, Seth - work rate, Oakley - leadership and experience. The central defence of Moore and Leacock too was well balanced. Or in 04/05, you had the contrast in styles between Taylor and Idiakez in midfield or Rasiak and Tudgay further forward.

When you look at the current team, we are predictable. Teams know that when they come up against us, it's a team full of enthusiasm and industry but no craft. We don't have the kind of player who would have unlocked Barnsley's defence to score that elusive second goal or dinked the ball over Coventry's keeper when clean through in the first half. Instances like that where we just miss that extra quality.

Our side was capable until the injuries hit, and even then we've hit teams like Portsmouth 3-0 with half a side out. Before then, during the good run, we were still short two key players which Clough said himself.

At the moment we've got no strikeforce and an injury hit side. We're going to suffer against better teams when that happens, or like on Saturday, fired up teams who're out to prove a point.

[Alex W]

utter nonsense, the second best player in the world christiano ronaldo who tore up the premiership had an extremely low work rate.

Ronaldo used to work his arse off, perhaps not defensively but he really went for it when he had the ball.

Plus it's rare that a player is that good, when they are they can often get away with it, how many Ronaldo's are out there in the footballing world? Very few.

[Leeds Ram]

Ronaldo used to work his arse off, perhaps not defensively but he really went for it when he had the ball.

Plus it's rare that a player is that good, when they are they can often get away with it, how many Ronaldo's are out there in the footballing world? Very few.

of course it's rare but being one of the best players in the premiership is rare alex. Ronaldo had extremely low work rate and only really tried when he had the ball, he was extremely lazy and this was often commented upon.

[CumbrianRam]

Probably because British football coaches prefer players who are "good athletes"

There are very few British Waddles, Le Tissiers these days sadly.

[bcnram]

of course it's rare but being one of the best players in the premiership is rare alex. Ronaldo had extremely low work rate and only really tried when he had the ball, he was extremely lazy and this was often commented upon.

Strange that!!! Jose Mourinho and Alex Ferguson had the opposite view to you.... still what do they know eh?

[Alex W]

of course it's rare but being one of the best players in the premiership is rare alex. Ronaldo had extremely low work rate and only really tried when he had the ball, he was extremely lazy and this was often commented upon.

A low work rate altogether would suggest that he barely ever moved though, wheras Ronaldo used to belt around when he had the ball, so it wasn't that low.

You certainly wouldn't rely on him to cover his full-back but you could be sure that when he got the ball he'd be off running at people rather than just spraying simple passes around and not really chasing down the ball when he could.

[Jourdan]

Our side was capable until the injuries hit, and even then we've hit teams like Portsmouth 3-0 with half a side out. Before then, during the good run, we were still short two key players which Clough said himself.

At the moment we've got no strikeforce and an injury hit side. We're going to suffer against better teams when that happens, or like on Saturday, fired up teams who're out to prove a point.

We've had key players injured since pre-season so we've never been at full-strength this season and I doubt we'll ever be.

What I'm getting at is that we don't have a match winner in midfield or in any position really. Someone who will take their one chance when the striker has missed ten, someone who will create something from nothing and turn a game on its head. Commons and Bueno were those kind of players and we don't have anyone who can have that sort of impact on a game. It's particularly painful when you're in a rut like we are, you need that kind of player that will produce something to get us going again.

[Leeds Ram]

A low work rate altogether would suggest that he barely ever moved though, wheras Ronaldo used to belt around when he had the ball, so it wasn't that low.

You certainly wouldn't rely on him to cover his full-back but you could be sure that when he got the ball he'd be off running at people rather than just spraying simple passes around and not really chasing down the ball when he could.

well cywka runs a lot when he has the ball but I would still say he has a low work rate, I think work rate is exactly that, how much you work for your team and while both cywka and ronaldo had a work rate when with the ball, without it their work rate was extremely low, coming to an aggregate score of a low work rate. A top class player does not need a big work rate.

[bcnram]

well cywka runs a lot when he has the ball but I would still say he has a low work rate, I think work rate is exactly that, how much you work for your team and while both cywka and ronaldo had a work rate when with the ball, without it their work rate was extremely low, coming to an aggregate score of a low work rate. A top class player does not need a big work rate.

I suggest you go away and learn a little about football. No matter how skilful you are, you will not get to the top these days without a good work-rate. To suggest that Ronaldo was "extremely lazy" is beyond stupid, particularly when two of his recent managers say how hard he works, I think you just make up these juvenile comments as you go along.

[Alex W]

We've had key players injured since pre-season so we've never been at full-strength this season and I doubt we'll ever be.

What I'm getting at is that we don't have a match winner in midfield or in any position really. Someone who will take their one chance when the striker has missed ten, someone who will create something from nothing and turn a game on its head. Commons and Bueno were those players and we don't have anyone who can have that sort of impact on a game.

We will be, but not for a while, and even when at full strength we've not got two key players in that side, one of whom would've been Waghorn if Clough could've managed it. He would've been one of those players to create something out of nothing.

We do have Ben Davies, who while usually average in general play can usually create something from a set-piece or get a cross in that will take a defence out of the game and give us a chance on a plate. Ward can create something out of nothing but hasn't been quite managing it, though not due to lack of effort. And strangely enough Robinson has some flair about him, but I see your point. W

hat I would say to that is that we've been after a main striker who can apply that touch for quite some time and still haven't managed it. We've also needed a defensive midfielder for a while, which while shoring up the midfield can mean a player like Hendrick/Bailey can push up more and spray passes around, look at Hendrick's third pass against Portsmouth, that's the kind of thing you need from creative players and we have it, though just spread about in different players.

We've shown that we can create goals and score against teams and not need someone like that to get by. If Waghorn had been signed he'd have been a similiar sort of influence, someone to go past two players and shoot at goal etc. Bryson is a decent option for running at defences etc, but he hasn't had the forward line to work with for a while now.

We do need some more flair yes, but we don't need it to the point that without it we can't win matches. The start of the season showed that.

[Alex W]

well cywka runs a lot when he has the ball but I would still say he has a low work rate, I think work rate is exactly that, how much you work for your team and while both cywka and ronaldo had a work rate when with the ball, without it their work rate was extremely low, coming to an aggregate score of a low work rate. A top class player does not need a big work rate.

I would say that he has a high workrate and always has (aside from this weekend apparently) which helps him along when he has a poor game. Last season there were times when he ran up and down the wing for 90 minutes without complaint, without it Cywka would be a very poor player indeed.

A top class player needs work-rate, as does any player. It just depends how much. Does he need to be chasing down the ball all the time? No. Does he need to put some effort in with the ball and atleast try to affect the game defensively slightly, yes.

Look how it affected Commons, look how much he improved when he was put on a running program and told to really put some effort in. It revolutionised him and he was hitting double figures before january.

You need work-rate, any player does. It just differs in some players how much work they need to put in to stay effective.

[bcnram]

I would say that he has a high workrate and always has (aside from this weekend apparently) which helps him along when he has a poor game. Last season there were times when he ran up and down the wing for 90 minutes without complaint, without it Cywka would be a very poor player indeed.

A top class player needs work-rate, as does any player. It just depends how much. Does he need to be chasing down the ball all the time? No. Does he need to put some effort in with the ball and atleast try to affect the game defensively slightly, yes.

Look how it affected Commons, look how much he improved when he was put on a running program and told to really put some effort in. It revolutionised him and he was hitting double figures before january.

You need work-rate, any player does. It just differs in some players how much work they need to put in to stay effective.

You are correct but it isn't just about the ball. It is also important how hard you work without the ball as well.

[Alex W]

You are correct but it isn't just about the ball. It is also important how hard you work without the ball as well.

Agreed, you need to put a shift in defensively. If you're an attacking midfielder than I wouldn't necessarily need that kind of player chasing every player who tries to get by him down, but you'd atleast want him attempting to chase down the ball and attempting to nick the ball back from players near him, even if it's probably not going to work most of the time.

In continental leagues you can sometimes get away without doing it, but not in England. I remember Juande Ramos at Tottenham having too many players who wouldn't work defensively when Tottenham were in the bottom three for a month or so, you just can't do that in English football.

[Leeds Ram]

I suggest you go away and learn a little about football. No matter how skilful you are, you will not get to the top these days without a good work-rate. To suggest that Ronaldo was "extremely lazy" is beyond stupid, particularly when two of his recent managers say how hard he works, I think you just make up these juvenile comments as you go along.

ironically i have learnt a lot about football, it depends on what your definition of work rate is. I think you will get to the top without a good work rate, ronaldo was lazy, he never used to track back and did very little defensively, but he was brilliant because he had tricks, pace and could strike a ball like few others, he worked hard to attain these achievements but did he have a good work rate, no not in my opinion on how i define work rate. It's ironic that calling my comments juvenile, has led you into the playground with the nature of your posts.

[ben_dcfc]

We will be, but not for a while, and even when at full strength we've not got two key players in that side, one of whom would've been Waghorn if Clough could've managed it. He would've been one of those players to create something out of nothing.

We do have Ben Davies, who while usually average in general play can usually create something from a set-piece or get a cross in that will take a defence out of the game and give us a chance on a plate. Ward can create something out of nothing but hasn't been quite managing it, though not due to lack of effort. And strangely enough Robinson has some flair about him, but I see your point. W

hat I would say to that is that we've been after a main striker who can apply that touch for quite some time and still haven't managed it. We've also needed a defensive midfielder for a while, which while shoring up the midfield can mean a player like Hendrick/Bailey can push up more and spray passes around, look at Hendrick's third pass against Portsmouth, that's the kind of thing you need from creative players and we have it, though just spread about in different players.

We've shown that we can create goals and score against teams and not need someone like that to get by. If Waghorn had been signed he'd have been a similiar sort of influence, someone to go past two players and shoot at goal etc. Bryson is a decent option for running at defences etc, but he hasn't had the forward line to work with for a while now.

We do need some more flair yes, but we don't need it to the point that without it we can't win matches. The start of the season showed that.

Waghorn may have added flair and could possivly have been the player we have been missing. But Clough should have had other options for if the waghorn deal fell through. How long were we chasing him for? That's one of the big problems with Clough, apart from his player selection and tactics, he seems to focus on one player and not have a plan B if this fails. It was the same with the defencive midfielder, he seemed to set out Eustace as the player he wanted then when this didn't happen nobody else was signed. Clough himself stated that this was a main target in the summer.

I agree that we can win matches without flair, but this puts lots of pressure on the defense. The games we won at the start of the season, mainly depended on us withstanding lots of pressure and shots and scoring with one of our few chances. This was never going to last as without that defencive midfielder and quality/competent left back we weren't going to keep clean sheets.

Although Ben Davies may have enough flair and crossing ability to create goals against poor defences like doncaster and portsmouth, against the middle to top teams, his general play is very poor. He has neither the pace or skill to beat his man and for me is only in the team for his corners. We need to play Cwyka in my opinion as he can beat his man and playing on the right in front of Brayford can be very effective. I would love to see us playing the same formation as last season with Cywka and Ward filling the wider roles.

[bcnram]

ironically i have learnt a lot about football, it depends on what your definition of work rate is. I think you will get to the top without a good work rate, ronaldo was lazy, he never used to track back and did very little defensively, but he was brilliant because he had tricks, pace and could strike a ball like few others, he worked hard to attain these achievements but did he have a good work rate, no not in my opinion on how i define work rate. It's ironic that calling my comments juvenile, has led you into the playground with the nature of your posts.

As I said before, odd how two of the top managers in the World who have also managed the boy think the opposite to you. Mourinho and Ferguson must have such a lot they could learn from you.

Madrid: Real Madrid manager Jose Mourinho has handed a compliment to his "friend" Sir Alex Ferguson for the work ethic inculcated in Cristiano Ronaldo during his time at Manchester United.

The former Chelsea boss shared a healthy rivalry with the Scot even before he worked in the Premier League, but still considers his Manchester-based counterpart a friend.

The ex-Porto and Inter manager also revealed that the pair had spoken about Ronaldo in the past, and remained impressed with the Portual international's work rate having watched the player during the club's pre-season.

"Jorge Mendes [Mourinho and Ronaldo's agent] works with me and with him and we always talk a lot about Cristiano," Mourinho told AS.

"In addition, there are few coaches that I am friends with and Sir Alex Ferguson is one of them. And I talked to him, too.

"He said that the 'lad' as he called him, had an amazing way of working. After seeing it up close, I think it is impressive for a player with the status he has that no one works harder than him.

"I had very experienced players at Inter, much older, they were examples. Zanetti, Cordoba and Materazzi showed how it was done.

"Here I have a Cristiano and, by the way he works, it is easy to demand from others what I want in regard to the dedication to work."

[rammieib]

Without the ball its about hard work and organisation. Clough likes to defend from the half way line and I think that infuriates supporters who want to see our attackers chase down defenders and goalkeepers. If a back four and midfield four are organised - then this will be better.

When we have the ball, we need some class. However, we are desperate for one, if not two strikers to play in behind the defence. We talk about Ward with his pace but he never chases a through ball - its always to feet that is so predictable. This is why Robinson was actually being quite effectual because for his lack of skill, he was at least trying to get in behind the defence.

Maguire is lost in a 4-4-2 and then compiled with his downright lazy attitude should be moved on in January. Again, did someone do a scouting report on him to find out about his attitude?

Someone on this thread said "Our squad is a bunch of triers with little quality." - this is spot on with Clough. I think he's scared of flair or creativity and in his time here, he has not purchased (I don't call Bueno a purchase) one player with the ability to unlock a defence and win games. Coupled with the lack of a 20 goal striker, we won't ever become top 6.

We desperately need a Sordell, a Rhodes, a Sharp, a Maynard up front. We need McCann in midfield. Players I don't think are unrealistic to attract to us but players but unless the board finance something more. I wonder at times if Clough is scared to spend money because how many times do we hear that "Clough doesn't think he's worth that much money"?

Now we may get our injured players back and a fit Barker will help. (Plus give Shackell lots more confidence - OB was at fault for letting his man get a run on him yesterday for the 1st) - Green and Bailey (who we are badly missing) and a Tyson will also add stuff but I do feel we are missing two wingers, creativity and a 20 Goal striker. We can carry Roberts if we get the other positions.

Oh well - here's hoping!

[Alex W]

Waghorn may have added flair and could possivly have been the player we have been missing. But Clough should have had other options for if the waghorn deal fell through. How long were we chasing him for? That's one of the big problems with Clough, apart from his player selection and tactics, he seems to focus on one player and not have a plan B if this fails. It was the same with the defencive midfielder, he seemed to set out Eustace as the player he wanted then when this didn't happen nobody else was signed. Clough himself stated that this was a main target in the summer.

I agree that we can win matches without flair, but this puts lots of pressure on the defense. The games we won at the start of the season, mainly depended on us withstanding lots of pressure and shots and scoring with one of our few chances. This was never going to last as without that defencive midfielder and quality/competent left back we weren't going to keep clean sheets.

Although Ben Davies may have enough flair and crossing ability to create goals against poor defences like doncaster and portsmouth, against the middle to top teams, his general play is very poor. He has neither the pace or skill to beat his man and for me is only in the team for his corners. We need to play Cwyka in my opinion as he can beat his man and playing on the right in front of Brayford can be very effective. I would love to see us playing the same formation as last season with Cywka and Ward filling the wider roles.

I agree, that seems to be a fault of Clough's, he focuses solely on one player. I wonder if that's because he thinks there is no-one else worth the money, or if he just can't see past that one player? I don't know. I'd agree that we need to be looking at more than one player for a position, you always need a back-up plan. Having said that, it needs to be a back-up plan worth pursuing.

Left-back isn't an issue, Roberts is just a scape-goat after everyone saw him have a poor first six months to last season and made their minds up then. He isn't a poor player, he's very much an average one. I would hope that he would be a back-up if we were making a serious promotion push, but we never were. He's ok, he's not someone to blame for this recent slump. The defensive midfielder we need and that is an issue, though with enough forward play we are able to get away without having one at times, but we shouldn't have to be. Hopefully that situation is resolved with atleast a loan in january, next summer that must be a priority, as with the striker. Fail to get one again and serious questions should be asked of those involved.

Cywka goes missing too much, but that's where i'd be playing him if available. However, Ben Davies has 10 assists to his name this season, and most of those are from open play. You say against the better teams he goes missing, but it's against the better teams that the slump began due to the injuries, so it's hard to judge. He can't beat his man no, but his general array of crossing will be vital once we have strikers who can head a ball again, and from corners he's always a danger. With Robinson and Maguire/Bennet etc upfront his crosses aren't as useful as they aren't players you want challenging for headers, as they generally can't do it. If you paired him up with someone like Howard/Kuqi/Parkin he'd be adding to that assist tally every other game. He's a specialist, and i'm not sure we can afford to drop him just now. If he continues to be inneffective though, i'd give Cywka a go to mix things up.

[RotherhamRam]

We've had key players injured since pre-season so we've never been at full-strength this season and I doubt we'll ever be.

What I'm getting at is that we don't have a match winner in midfield or in any position really. Someone who will take their one chance when the striker has missed ten, someone who will create something from nothing and turn a game on its head. Commons and Bueno were those kind of players and we don't have anyone who can have that sort of impact on a game. It's particularly painful when you're in a rut like we are, you need that kind of player that will produce something to get us going again.

Commons final month here was shocking as he knew he would be going to Celtic.

Bueno was good when he arrived as coinicided with the purple patch. However they knew one hard hit in first 5 minutes would be affected big style in form, could not tackle.

I would love a flair player however at present with injuries and niggles players have it is a luxury we can not afford to have. Get the team back fully fit and may be and I mean may be Cywka gets another opportunity however Maguire needs to work his arse off to get another chance for me

[ben_dcfc]

Obviously it has to be a back-up plan worth pursuing, but there must be options out there, it's all about scouting the english leagues and in other countries to find these players. We seem to be severely limited in this area, as it usually a player Clough has past experience with or someone who has done well against us in the past that we look at. When we did look abroad for talent, we brought in Bueno, whose quality showed in the purple patch last year.

I agree with you that Roberts shouldn't be made a scapegoat, he's showing now that he is a solid left back for this league, not great but certainly not as bad as Kilbane in that position. However, i feel my point was valid that if we have little qualilty in terms of being able to keep hold of the ball in midfield and up front, we invite pressure on to ourselves and those weaknesses are exposed, with him being the weak link in what could be a solid back 5. I still think Moxey was a better option than him, and find the decision to sell him as one of the most bizarre by clough.

Yeah he does go missing and can be a little lightweight at times. I wasn't at the game Saturday, so can't comment on others saying he was lazy then, but from seeing him last season, i don't feel he usually lacks effort at all, maybe is just becoming very frustrated. I feel he needs a run of games to stake his claim as not beneficial to switch between him and doyle giving them a 1 game trial. Didn't realise Davies had quite that many assists, but yeah it would be difficult to drop him with that amount, but feel as you say without a target man, he doesn't add much at all in open play. If he's going to be kept in the team then surely it is worth giving Callum Ball a game or two. He seems to score for fun in the reserves and could be the man to get on crosses and hold the ball up. Could also be used in a 4231 formation, playing the Kuqi role.