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Bris Vegas

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At the request of a few posters, here is our last 10 minute results beginning from last season (2010-11)

My arguement is valid.. Where are the last minute goals? Where's the attacking intent? No winners, no equalisers..

This includes all draws and losses etc.. Score in brackets after 80 minutes.. These are all where we are winning or drawing with 10 mins to go.. We have 0 equalisers, zilch, so theres no point in even posting games up where we approach 80 minutes losing by a single goal

The ones in bold indicate points thrown away

Peterborough L 3-2 (2-2)

Reading D 2-2 (2-2)

Southampton D 1-1 (1-1)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

Norwich L 3-2 (2-2)

QPR D 0-0 (0-0)

Coventry 2-2 (2-2)

Crystal Palace D 2-2 (1-2)

Barnsley D 0-0 (0-0)

Middlesborough L 2-1 (1-1)

Ssausagehorpe D 0-0 (0-0)

Portsmouth D 1-1 (0-1)

Forest L 0-1 (0-0)

Millwall D 0-0 (0-0)

Reading L 2-1 (1-1)

Burnley L 2-1 (0-1)

Swansea D 0-0 (0-0)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

QPR D 2-2 (0-2)

Coventry L 2-1 (1-1)

So I make that 0 wins, with 0 goals scored with 80 minutes to go in over a year.. When drawing or losing.. Also we've thrown away a grand total of 14 points in the 2010-11 season

This season from 4 drawing games approaching 80 minutes this season we've thrown away 1 point scored 0..

And you can't see why I'm gutted with our 'mentality' when approaching 80 minutes.. It has nothing to do with luck, it's those who want to win games get those extra points and those that look to 'shut up shop' lose them.. It's simply a dreadful dreadful record.. I'd say we must have the worse record going in the football league.. The longest without an 80 min+ equaliser or winner..

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The above includes losing it when in a winning position.. I'll make it even simpler, when drawing with 10 minutes left here are the following results

Peterborough 3-2 (2-2)

Reading 2-2 (2-2)

Southampton 1-1 (1-1)

Barnsley 1-1 (1-1)

Norwich 3-2 (2-2)

QPR 0-0 (0-0)

Coventry 2-2 (2-2)

Barnsley 0-0 (0-0)

Middlesborough 2-1 (1-1)

Ssausagehorpe 0-0 (0-0)

Forest 1-0 (0-0)

Millwall 0-0 (0-0)

Reading 2-1 (1-1)

*Burnley 2-1 (1-1)

Swansea 0-0 (0-0)

Barnsley 1-1 (1-1)

Coventry 2-1 (1-1)

Conclusion is in the 17 games when drawing at 80 minutes we have scored 0 goals and therefore won 0 extra points.. However, we have lost in 7 of those games

So for the mathmeticians.. In the 17 games that we have been drawing at 80 minutes we have 0 wins (0%) 10 draws (59%) and 7 losses (41%)

So are you really happy about our last 10 minute mentality.. Seriously?

Because when 80 minutes approaches.. And NC starts to issue his instructions, take into account that should we follow trend with the previous 15 months or so that we have 0% chance of winning, only 59% of 'holding on' to the point and 41% chance of losing..

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No-one is arguing that we haven't shipped late goals, infact, most recognise that we were the worst for it, I do believe that was proved to be fact and circulated around the old DET forum a few years ago with a big graph of late goals.

Now, i'm not sure why but you appear to be saying that we're all oblivious to it and we're not accepting that fact. I assure you, at the very least in my case, that is not true. Rather, what you posted yesterday infact is what we're annoyed with.

You belittled Clough for defensive and negative tactics and blamed him for the loss against Peterborough. As has been proven by most people who were actually at the ground, our downfall was entirely due to us being too positive and trying to attack for a late winner. We attacked, lost the ball, conceded a 'foul' (I use the term loosely) and were punished for it. That's not being negative, that's being too honest. This is why people argued with you, because your statement was entirely incorrect.

Secondly, that is a collection of stats from last season. This season the team is much better, the general side is more positive and we're going defensive at the end only in certain games and with enough distance between us and losing points as possible (The Portsmouth game for example). The team last season had a number of shakey performances in there, the likes of Dean Leacock (Who I still think should be an option) and Stephen Bywater in particular cost us late goals through their own mistakes, rather than our negative attitude. Ever thought that it's not Nigel playing negatively, but the players themselves falling back and making mistakes that cost us? Not every single one of those was his fault due to poor tactics, the players were to blame just as much.

Thirdly, how can you highlight all of those games yet ignore those where we scored? I distinctly remember DJ Campbell scoring in the last minute against WBA to rescue a draw for us. Against Preston we were charging forwards so much when late on that Russel Anderson even managed to win us a penalty. Against QPR the very reason we let those goals in was due to honesty from James Bailey, who instead of doing what Neil Warnock mentioned in the post-match press conference of just running the ball to the corner, we pushed for a winner and were caught with players out of position. They then scored from the resulting attack. Against Reading last month we let a goal in due to Russel Anderson bombing forward to try and set an attack up and they attacked down the side he should have been and levelled. How many more goals do you think we'd ship if this was a daily occurence?

No-one is saying that we don't let late goals in chap, particularly in the past, but to blame it all on negative tactics seems a tad blind. There are many factors that have meant we've conceded late. So many different causes in different matches have cropped up that this ridiculous block of text above couldn't even begin to describe them all. I haven't even mentioned that some of those sides turned up and were better than us, and therefore scored late goals due to them generally working our defence for 90 minutes.

And now look what you made me do. TL:DR

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At the request of a few posters, here is our last 10 minute results beginning from last season (2010-11)

My arguement is valid.. Where are the last minute goals? Where's the attacking intent? No winners, no equalisers..

This includes all draws and losses etc.. Score in brackets after 80 minutes.. These are all where we are winning or drawing with 10 mins to go.. We have 0 equalisers, zilch, so theres no point in even posting games up where we approach 80 minutes losing by a single goal

The ones in bold indicate points thrown away

Peterborough L 3-2 (2-2)

Reading D 2-2 (2-2)

Southampton D 1-1 (1-1)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

Norwich L 3-2 (2-2)

QPR D 0-0 (0-0)

Coventry 2-2 (2-2)

Crystal Palace D 2-2 (1-2)

Barnsley D 0-0 (0-0)

Middlesborough L 2-1 (1-1)

Ssausagehorpe D 0-0 (0-0)

Portsmouth D 1-1 (0-1)

Forest L 0-1 (0-0)

Millwall D 0-0 (0-0)

Reading L 2-1 (1-1)

Burnley L 2-1 (0-1)

Swansea D 0-0 (0-0)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

QPR D 2-2 (0-2)

Coventry L 2-1 (1-1)

So I make that 0 wins, with 0 goals scored with 80 minutes to go in over a year.. When drawing or losing.. Also we've thrown away a grand total of 14 points in the 2010-11 season

This season from 4 drawing games approaching 80 minutes this season we've thrown away 1 point scored 0..

And you can't see why I'm gutted with our 'mentality' when approaching 80 minutes.. It has nothing to do with luck, it's those who want to win games get those extra points and those that look to 'shut up shop' lose them.. It's simply a dreadful dreadful record.. I'd say we must have the worse record going in the football league.. The longest without an 80 min+ equaliser or winner..

Thanks for taking the time to prove that we are a NEGATIVE team in the last 10 mins.

Would love you to do the above for Norwich City...under the POSITIVE Paul Lambert.

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No-one is arguing that we haven't shipped late goals, infact, most recognise that we were the worst for it, I do believe that was proved to be fact and circulated around the old DET forum a few years ago with a big graph of late goals.

Now, i'm not sure why but you appear to be saying that we're all oblivious to it and we're not accepting that fact. I assure you, at the very least in my case, that is not true. Rather, what you posted yesterday infact is what we're annoyed with.

You belittled Clough for defensive and negative tactics and blamed him for the loss against Peterborough. As has been proven by most people who were actually at the ground, our downfall was entirely due to us being too positive and trying to attack for a late winner. We attacked, lost the ball, conceded a 'foul' (I use the term loosely) and were punished for it. That's not being negative, that's being too honest. This is why people argued with you, because your statement was entirely incorrect.

Secondly, that is a collection of stats from last season. This season the team is much better, the general side is more positive and we're going defensive at the end only in certain games and with enough distance between us and losing points as possible (The Portsmouth game for example). The team last season had a number of shakey performances in there, the likes of Dean Leacock (Who I still think should be an option) and Stephen Bywater in particular cost us late goals through their own mistakes, rather than our negative attitude. Ever thought that it's not Nigel playing negatively, but the players themselves falling back and making mistakes that cost us? Not every single one of those was his fault due to poor tactics, the players were to blame just as much.

Thirdly, how can you highlight all of those games yet ignore those where we scored? I distinctly remember DJ Campbell scoring in the last minute against WBA to rescue a draw for us. Against Preston we were charging forwards so much when late on that Russel Anderson even managed to win us a penalty. Against QPR the very reason we let those goals in was due to honesty from James Bailey, who instead of doing what Neil Warnock mentioned in the post-match press conference of just running the ball to the corner, we pushed for a winner and were caught with players out of position. They then scored from the resulting attack. Against Reading last month we let a goal in due to Russel Anderson bombing forward to try and set an attack up and they attacked down the side he should have been and levelled. How many more goals do you think we'd ship if this was a daily occurence?

No-one is saying that we don't let late goals in chap, particularly in the past, but to blame it all on negative tactics seems a tad blind. There are many factors that have meant we've conceded late. So many different causes in different matches have cropped up that this ridiculous block of text above couldn't even begin to describe them all. I haven't even mentioned that some of those sides turned up and were better than us, and therefore scored late goals due to them generally working our defence for 90 minutes.

And now look what you made me do. TL:DR

0% win ratio from 17 games DOESNT LIE.

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That tells me we have a young squad who will get tired, and are inexperienced. More experienced sides will take advantage of that.

It also tells me we had a patchwork squad last season that were barely fit for purpose in the Championship, let alone winning games in the last few minutes.

If you want to look at stats, try looking at the table.

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Don't see how stats can be used to prove your point to be fair Bris, you would need possession stats, where the ball has been in the 3 areas of the pitch. You would also need shots for and shots against for the last 10 minutes.

Take the last game result for example, forget the actual match but we are 2-2 with 10 to go, we have 60/40 possession, the ball was in there half for 80%, we have 10 attempts on goal and they have 0.....a goal kick booted right up field, knocked and a 30 yard screamer goes in Fielding's top corner.

I'm not saying what you are saying isn't true, but those stats don't show enough, like the game on Saturday. I see in the other thread you later say you are not just talking about the Peterborough game but your opening post just an hour after the final whistle does make it look like you are talking about that game which is why you are probably getting the stick you are.

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Whether we have been negative or not, those stats are completely irrelevant.

The stats show whether we've scored or conceded in the last 10 minutes - not how we've played.

I wouldnt call it irrelevant and i think clough wouldnt either. Hes refered to conceding too many late goals many times over the last year.

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I wouldnt call it irrelevant and i think clough wouldnt either. Hes refered to conceding too many late goals many times over the last year.

Seems to me that Bris has taken the time to point out a set of facts. Fair enough.

Seems to me that there are lots of other, and positive, facts that could be quoted if anyone could be bothered to do so.

Seems to me that some people are more negative than positive.

Seems to me that some people like to criticise, sometimes rather unfairly

Seems to me that Derby County are in the top half of the Division.

Seems to me that a number of people will be very happy with that.

Also Seems to me that a number of people wil be very unhappy with that.

Some of the above are facts. Not sure whether they are interesting though.

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I wouldnt call it irrelevant and i think clough wouldnt either. Hes refered to conceding too many late goals many times over the last year.

Quite right, we have conceded too many late goals - thats not the point here though. Bris was insisting we threw the game away on Saturday by being negative, its not true.

Its all irrelevant now tho'. Its done and dusted and no matter what happens, the one constant is that we all know better than the current manager of DCFC (whoever it is at any given time). 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

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Absymal record in the latter part of games. I'm hoping he is learning though, nothing like laying out the facts to compound a point as Bris has done.

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Thirdly, how can you highlight all of those games yet ignore those where we scored? I distinctly remember DJ Campbell scoring in the last minute against WBA to rescue a draw for us. Against Preston we were charging forwards so much when late on that Russel Anderson even managed to win us a penalty. Against QPR the very reason we let those goals in was due to honesty from James Bailey, who instead of doing what Neil Warnock mentioned in the post-match press conference of just running the ball to the corner, we pushed for a winner and were caught with players out of position. They then scored from the resulting attack. Against Reading last month we let a goal in due to Russel Anderson bombing forward to try and set an attack up and they attacked down the side he should have been and levelled. How many more goals do you think we'd ship if this was a daily occurence?

Alex, firstly thanks for the post..

Just a touch on this, it doesn't fit in with what you are saying.. Against WBA we were 1-0 up with 10 minutes to go..Not only did we concede, but we then sat back trying to get a point and conceded again to make it 1-2.. Then DJ got the equaliser.. Perhaps if we'd had an attacking mentality and attempted to get at them rather than holding out for 1-0 we would have won that game.. Also this happened in on the 5th Decemeber 2009.. Nearly a full 2 years ago..

Can you please give me a fact to back up that we aren't negative in the last 10 minutes of play?.. Like where with the scores even at 80 minutes we've pushed on for a winner..

This season alone the following teams have won when level at 80 minutes

Peterborough 3-2 Derby

Barsnely 1-2 Bristol City

Coventry 1-2 Burnley

Hull 3-2 Watford

Peterborough 2-3 Leeds

Blackpool 2-1 Donny

Palace 1-0 Bristol City

Burnley 0-1 Reading

Forest 1-3 Brum

Watford 2-1 Millwall

WHU 0-1 Ipswich

Portsmouth 1-0 Blackpool

Bristol City 0-1 Brighton

Southampton 3-2 Forest

WHU 0-1 Cardiff

That's just a selection showing different teams.. Peterborough (3), Reading (2), Ipswich (2), Brighton (2), Palace (3), Cardiff (2) and Blackpool (3) all have done it numerous times this season.. Positive mentality in the last 10 minutes can win you so many more points..

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Thanks for taking the time to prove that we are a NEGATIVE team in the last 10 mins.

Would love you to do the above for Norwich City...under the POSITIVE Paul Lambert.

Norwich basically got promoted on their 80 minute plus record.. Just like we did under Billy Davies.. That positivity and wanting to win games can be the difference between a struggler and a promotion chaser..

If games finished after 80 minutes Norwich would have been around 9th/10th last season.. And under BD we would have finished around the same too..

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0% win ratio from 17 games DOESNT LIE.

It also doesn't take into account all variables or different factors which resulted in those losses. And it isn't a 0% gain in points, as the QPR game proves, nor is it taking into account games where we're winning and yet still push for a winner. Bris is sugesting that we go negative in all games, which results in the equalisers.

I think for that to be true we'd need to have let a late goal in every game, or near enough to it, wheras we did manage some clean sheets and score late goals ourselves, even if there weren't that many of them.

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At the request of a few posters, here is our last 10 minute results beginning from last season (2010-11)

My arguement is valid.. Where are the last minute goals? Where's the attacking intent? No winners, no equalisers..

This includes all draws and losses etc.. Score in brackets after 80 minutes.. These are all where we are winning or drawing with 10 mins to go.. We have 0 equalisers, zilch, so theres no point in even posting games up where we approach 80 minutes losing by a single goal

The ones in bold indicate points thrown away

Peterborough L 3-2 (2-2)

Reading D 2-2 (2-2)

Southampton D 1-1 (1-1)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

Norwich L 3-2 (2-2)

QPR D 0-0 (0-0)

Coventry 2-2 (2-2)

Crystal Palace D 2-2 (1-2)

Barnsley D 0-0 (0-0)

Middlesborough L 2-1 (1-1)

Ssausagehorpe D 0-0 (0-0)

Portsmouth D 1-1 (0-1)

Forest L 0-1 (0-0)

Millwall D 0-0 (0-0)

Reading L 2-1 (1-1)

Burnley L 2-1 (0-1)

Swansea D 0-0 (0-0)

Barnsley D 1-1 (1-1)

QPR D 2-2 (0-2)

Coventry L 2-1 (1-1)

So I make that 0 wins, with 0 goals scored with 80 minutes to go in over a year.. When drawing or losing.. Also we've thrown away a grand total of 14 points in the 2010-11 season

This season from 4 drawing games approaching 80 minutes this season we've thrown away 1 point scored 0..

And you can't see why I'm gutted with our 'mentality' when approaching 80 minutes.. It has nothing to do with luck, it's those who want to win games get those extra points and those that look to 'shut up shop' lose them.. It's simply a dreadful dreadful record.. I'd say we must have the worse record going in the football league.. The longest without an 80 min+ equaliser or winner..

Robert Earnshaw scored on 79th min against forest.

Sorry to be stupidly picky, but it seems that this thread has been from the very first post.

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Alex, firstly thanks for the post.. Just a touch on this, it doesn't fit in with what you are saying.. Against WBA we were 1-0 up with 10 minutes to go..Not only did we concede, but we then sat back trying to get a point and conceded again to make it 1-2.. Then DJ got the equaliser.. Perhaps if we'd had an attacking mentality and attempted to get at them rather than holding out for 1-0 we would have won that game.. Also this happened in on the 5th Decemeber 2009.. Nearly a full 2 years ago.. Can you please give me a fact to back up that we aren't negative in the last 10 minutes of play?.. Like where with the scores even at 80 minutes we've pushed on for a winner..

I've cut down your quote Bris, just because it was glitching in this reply box (I'm sure people can still see your full answer above).

There are several reasons why we might not have won in the last 80 minutes. The first is that, for the most part this season, we've been out of sight at home or atleast had enough of a goal lead to not be constantly pushing forward. Doncaster, Millwall, Portsmouth etc we've no need of bombing forwards as we'd already won those games. Even then, we've had chances at the ends of matches where we've still been going forward with no real need to.

Another reason which is linked to games like the WBA one, I can distinctly remember that game (DJ's goal was my favourite of that entire season, a Mr Scott Carsons antics had annoyed me) and we weren't negative. We were still trying to get forward, Nigel put on a striker with the last 10 minutes to go, we were pushing for a winner before they scored their second goal. There are games like this which don't represent how we actually played. As Daveo mentioned, you'd need a stat recording of not only possession but how far back our defensive line was. And even then, almost every team drops deeper in the last ten minutes even slightly.

For positive results this season I can name a fair few. At Forest, despite the goal not being the last ten minutes, we were still pushing people forward with only ten men on the pitch and a point within our grasp against our rivals. And yet we were still attempting to break when we could, we even stuck Nathan Tyson on for no real reason other than to add some more threat upfront. At Reading we were pushing for a goal, got one, and immediately pushed for another. Again, when we kick off, we're caught out because our right-back is looking to help build up a further attack to try and grab a third. Another game is Barnsley, which while we were of course 1-0 down, we'd been pushing for goals all game and once we grabbed the equaliser we continued to attack till the very last minute. Not so much the actions of someone happy to settle for a point with ten mins left at home.

In previous seasons we've had problems with letting late goals in, but that's also not so much being negative, rather a nervous and below average side being forced back by better teams and crumbling. While you can't rule out blame for Clough when this happens as the manager always takes some of the flak, the more pressing concern would be the players around at that time. At times we have indeed dropped back too far and let goals in, but Nigel appeared to learn from that, atleast in regard to how long he does it for.

You cannot blame all of this on negative tactics, basically. We've been positive at the end of games this season, we just haven't had the need to rescue games as often we've been winning them. And as i've shown, there have been games where we've been too positive, rather than what you're claiming is endlessly negative tactics. I suspect I might be banging my head against a wall as you can't have seen these games and so go on previous evidence, unless you get a stream of course. I'm not one of those to ridicule people who can't get to the games, but if you can't see how we've attempted to play then you can't be fully clued up on how we've approached games this season. Others are trying to point it out, while people like Haywood seem to be against Clough entirely anyway so nothing I say can change their opinions.

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