Last 10 Minute Mentality

[Bris Vegas]

Points thrown away in the last 10 minutes.

Coventry (A) 2-1

QPR (H) 2-2

Burnley (A) 2-1

Reading (H) 1-2

Pompey (A) 1-1

Boro (A) 2-1

Palace (A) 2-2

Norwich (A) 3-2

Points won in the last 10 minutes.

Erm.. Zero.

If games finished after 80 minutes we'd have 13 more points.

Another huge lesson this season. Look at Norwich on how to deal with the last 10 minutes. If you attack, you win more points, if you defend, you lose more points.

[sunnyside]

And how many thrown away in stoppage time! All Cywka's fault

[Bris Vegas]

Also in the last 20 minutes of play.. Derby have only scored 8 goals all season. In only two of those games was the game in any doubt.

Donny 2-3 Derby when Commons scored in the 72nd minute.

Preston 1-2 Derby when Porter scored in the 70th and 84th minute.

All the others being consolations or when the game was already won.

NC has alot to learn.

[ramexpat]

Games dont finish in the 80th minute and they never have done , this is like saying what if games finished after 4 mins 35 seconds ,, the players know this , they get paid to go out and play for 90 plus minutes if at the end of that they lose regardless of the minute they concede a goal they have failed. and thats what our season has been about ,, its been a bad season ,, bring on next season

[RotherhamRam]

Also in the last 20 minutes of play.. Derby have only scored 8 goals all season. In only two of those games was the game in any doubt.

Donny 2-3 Derby when Commons scored in the 72nd minute.

Preston 1-2 Derby when Porter scored in the 70th and 84th minute.

All the others being consolations or when the game was already won.

NC has alot to learn.

Stop chucking the NC fault quotes in. If you watch clough he is waving his players up the pitch not into defence. It is a young squad who have learnt valuable experience and the team squad and Clough need to learn as a whole not one player or person

[Bris Vegas]

Stop chucking the NC fault quotes in. If you watch clough he is waving his players up the pitch not into defence. It is a young squad who have learnt valuable experience and the team squad and Clough need to learn as a whole not one player or person

Why not?

It's his teams mentality to sit back with 20 minutes remaining, ordering his players to sit deep, invite pressure, gift away possession and smash it into the corners.

I've just listed our results, it's a fact, we have scored no goals of any significance in the last 10 minutes and thrown points away in 8 different games. (1/5).

His last 10 minute tactics clearly don't work.. Norwichs tactics of attack in the last 10 minutes clearly do work.

[Donny Ram]

We invite pressure by defending deep and leaving no up-field outlet most of the time. How many times do you find yourself shouting for us to leave a player or two on the halfway line when we defend a corner. It's basic stuff really, if you leave two up then they have to pull three back to defend and it gives you an outlet rather than knock the ball out and watch it come straight back routine.

For all the calling of Sav that goes on in this forum, he still seems to be the one breaking out and chasing the ball down once it's been cleared, a few younger pairs of legs need to learn a lesson from this.

Another basic tactic is by keeping the ball and let the opposition do the running and chasing down, you don't have to attack to do this. If you knock the ball about at the back you have to have players confident on the ball that don't panic and make silly passes. When you clear the ball, pass to a player in a Rams shirt, Tommy Pole should listen to Clough (I'm not suggesting Clough was correct to hang his dirty washing out in public).

[G STAR RAM]

We invite pressure by defending deep and leaving no up-field outlet most of the time. How many times do you find yourself shouting for us to leave a player or two on the halfway line when we defend a corner. It's basic stuff really, if you leave two up then they have to pull three back to defend and it gives you an outlet rather than knock the ball out and watch it come straight back routine.

Glad I am not the only one who thinks this.

Why would you have Theo Robinson anywhere other than on the halfway line for opposition corners?

Him coming back invites an extra 2 opposing defenders into our half and gives us absolutely no quick break outlet.

The last time I saw this happen was back in the days of Arthur Cox, this was also the last time late defensive substitutions were regularly made which puts the team under even more pressure.

I would love to see us proving that the best form of defence is attack...mainly because we have proved time after time that we can't defend properly!

[RotherhamRam]

Why not?

It's his teams mentality to sit back with 20 minutes remaining, ordering his players to sit deep, invite pressure, gift away possession and smash it into the corners.

I've just listed our results, it's a fact, we have scored no goals of any significance in the last 10 minutes and thrown points away in 8 different games. (1/5).

His last 10 minute tactics clearly don't work.. Norwichs tactics of attack in the last 10 minutes clearly do work.

Going to try and explain a couple of things about mentality of professional sports.

When confidence is high you believe you can beat everyone even if you not the better team. Derbys confidence got hit quite hard over November December time.

When your confidence is low you get scared to attack because you don't want to concede goals. Not blaming Bywater totally for this when he came back in the defence knew they would not keep clean sheet so the team drops back.

When your board admit they have not supported the manager as they should have (Glick after Jan transfer window) the protests start. Although I agree with them they do impact on the players.

Talk of a takeover always impact at clubs look at Liverpool. Top 4/5 team over last 6yrs, last summer fans unrest near the bottom in relegation fight.

Injuries meaning players played out of position and although do a job it takes confidence out of them. This is because the squad not big enough this is because the board have cut costs and run on minimum and now realise you can't run a club like the coalition government is doing with the country.

Today Norwich are 2nd going into the match full of confidence after 5-1 victory over Ipswich, Derby coming out of 4-2 loss and nervous over relegation battle and confidence and tiredness after playing thirty mins with 10 men. They are not carrying injuries, we are, Roberts, Bueno, Barker, not sure you notice this but 50% of the defence against two strikers in holt and jackson where you don't need injured defenders.

In games at home I have seen Clough and Metgod screaming at players to push up but they are worried about conceding goals.

This is why the board, the manager need to work together to bring new players in and the players need to work together in getting them settled in as soon as possible. We have a lot of youngsters there who have gained valuable experience this season and will make them stronger next season and if the board are going to back the playing side then I am excited.

I have seen enough of the team and style of football Clough wants to play in Septemeber and October but needs the players now to sustain this and this will only happen with the squad having some money spent on it

[48 hours]

Going to try and explain a couple of things about mentality of professional sports.

When confidence is high you believe you can beat everyone even if you not the better team. Derbys confidence got hit quite hard over November December time.

When your confidence is low you get scared to attack because you don't want to concede goals. Not blaming Bywater totally for this when he came back in the defence knew they would not keep clean sheet so the team drops back.

When your board admit they have not supported the manager as they should have (Glick after Jan transfer window) the protests start. Although I agree with them they do impact on the players.

Talk of a takeover always impact at clubs look at Liverpool. Top 4/5 team over last 6yrs, last summer fans unrest near the bottom in relegation fight.

Injuries meaning players played out of position and although do a job it takes confidence out of them. This is because the squad not big enough this is because the board have cut costs and run on minimum and now realise you can't run a club like the coalition government is doing with the country.

Today Norwich are 2nd going into the match full of confidence after 5-1 victory over Ipswich, Derby coming out of 4-2 loss and nervous over relegation battle and confidence and tiredness after playing thirty mins with 10 men. They are not carrying injuries, we are, Roberts, Bueno, Barker, not sure you notice this but 50% of the defence against two strikers in holt and jackson where you don't need injured defenders.

In games at home I have seen Clough and Metgod screaming at players to push up but they are worried about conceding goals.

This is why the board, the manager need to work together to bring new players in and the players need to work together in getting them settled in as soon as possible. We have a lot of youngsters there who have gained valuable experience this season and will make them stronger next season and if the board are going to back the playing side then I am excited.

I have seen enough of the team and style of football Clough wants to play in Septemeber and October but needs the players now to sustain this and this will only happen with the squad having some money spent on it

You are spot on ...

There is also a 'culture' that needs to be nurtured at the club to turn last-minute defeats into last-minute wins.

Liverpool under (the great) Bob Shankly used to regularly win games in the last minute, and Man Utd have a mentality within the club whereby they believe that they can get something out of a game right up until the final whistle.

It was noticeable that the U-18s, Reserves and First team all came from a goal down to win 2-1 within the last few weeks, so it is looking more promising.

[nfb]

Going to try and explain a couple of things about mentality of professional sports.

When confidence is high you believe you can beat everyone even if you not the better team. Derbys confidence got hit quite hard over November December time.

When your confidence is low you get scared to attack because you don't want to concede goals. Not blaming Bywater totally for this when he came back in the defence knew they would not keep clean sheet so the team drops back.

When your board admit they have not supported the manager as they should have (Glick after Jan transfer window) the protests start. Although I agree with them they do impact on the players.

Some great points, but not sure i'm convinced that most 'good' managers would let players (however young) to 'dictate' play. Especially as as we know we conceed

Talk of a takeover always impact at clubs look at Liverpool. Top 4/5 team over last 6yrs, last summer fans unrest near the bottom in relegation fight.

Injuries meaning players played out of position and although do a job it takes confidence out of them. This is because the squad not big enough this is because the board have cut costs and run on minimum and now realise you can't run a club like the coalition government is doing with the country.

Today Norwich are 2nd going into the match full of confidence after 5-1 victory over Ipswich, Derby coming out of 4-2 loss and nervous over relegation battle and confidence and tiredness after playing thirty mins with 10 men. They are not carrying injuries, we are, Roberts, Bueno, Barker, not sure you notice this but 50% of the defence against two strikers in holt and jackson where you don't need injured defenders.

In games at home I have seen Clough and Metgod screaming at players to push up but they are worried about conceding goals.

This is why the board, the manager need to work together to bring new players in and the players need to work together in getting them settled in as soon as possible. We have a lot of youngsters there who have gained valuable experience this season and will make them stronger next season and if the board are going to back the playing side then I am excited.

I have seen enough of the team and style of football Clough wants to play in Septemeber and October but needs the players now to sustain this and this will only happen with the squad having some money spent on it

Some great points, and valid ones too, but it doesn't really excuse why we conceeded some 60% of goals in the last 20 mins.. also im not sure that a 'good' manager would allow players (however young) to 'dictate' the way we play.... especially if it leads to us conceeding so frequently ?

Im suprised that it continued because i'm sure they were as aware of it as we all are....

now there's a conundrum. 'going backwards is no way to go forwards' ?

[caymanram]

worth noting in cnjunction with these stats that this is also when the majority of late subs are made..... never helps anything unless theres an injury. I am a NC fan but i also think his 'directions' onfuse the players. in diff post match interviews he has said we need to keep the ball in the last few mins, kick it down to their corner flag, dribble to their corner flag (unless u r cywka !)....make yer mind up !

[davenportram]

worth noting in cnjunction with these stats that this is also when the majority of late subs are made..... never helps anything unless theres an injury. I am a NC fan but i also think his 'directions' onfuse the players. in diff post match interviews he has said we need to keep the ball in the last few mins, kick it down to their corner flag, dribble to their corner flag (unless u r cywka !)....make yer mind up !

Depends where on the pitch you are. In your own half when the ball comes out of our own box hoof it.

If your the forward chase the hoof and pressure the defence. If you get control and are pushed wide dribble into the corner flags.

If we gain possession around the half way line, and it us not as a result if a clearance from our own box, keep the ball. Try to walk it forward and wide to the corners. Kills time, might get chance for a cross or to win a corner.

Cloughs comments may seem confusing and contrary, but they were all made when asked about or commenting on a specific mistake in a match when the wrong option was taken.

[RotherhamRam]

Some great points, and valid ones too, but it doesn't really excuse why we conceeded some 60% of goals in the last 20 mins.. also im not sure that a 'good' manager would allow players (however young) to 'dictate' the way we play.... especially if it leads to us conceeding so frequently ?

Im suprised that it continued because i'm sure they were as aware of it as we all are....

now there's a conundrum. 'going backwards is no way to go forwards' ?

Maybe it is a question to ask Roy Hodgson who was touted as many as last season manager of the season with Fulham. He moved to Liverpool with better players etc but they turned very quickly into a defensive team. Now don't think you can call him a poor manager as you clearly indicate Clough is the the comment of ...also im not sure that a 'good' manager would allow players (however young) to 'dictate' the way we play.......

Now Liverpool were low on confidence and injuries and there first point of defence is to turn into defensive mode. Listening to Hodgson in post match interviews he was unable to answer why they were defensive as it is not worked on in training. Now these players are established championship players who revert into this style. Their attacking fortunes changed by selling a striker for £50million and buying Suiez and Carrol.

I am not suggesting we sell a striker for £50million ... because we don't have an out and out striker....I think the squad needs investment.

Now Clough was backed with loans not ideal I know but lets be honest Ayala, Ward and even Robinson have made a difference along with the positive feeling of Fielding (who by the way lives in Derby, if you need any clue he was coming to us) post Bywater leaving. Similar to when Kuqi came though not many of you wanted him.

Now to counteract your comment a poor manager on zip amount of money on a reduction plan who can only buy unproven championship players and get loan players in who are not used in the squad of the clubs they come, within one of the most difficult and unpredictable leagues in the world would not have kept us up. Further to this we would not have had the entertaining football in September or October like we had

[rammieib]

Some good points and I think everyone is right in some kind of way on what they have said.

My gripe is that I think mentality comes from the management and they are not doing enough to get their point across.

After the Burnley match I remember Clough saying something along the lines of the fact we should have scored more in the first half, but I specifically remember a free kick in the 44th minute, about 10 yards from our bench, and that we have 5 back (including the free kick taker) to mark one striker? This constantly happens.

So Clough is adopting a defence first position and then this is how it becomes in the last 20/10 minutes. Defend a one goal lead or a draw, over trying to score a second, or get a winner.

This mentality coupled with the fact I don't think our players are simply good enough players.

Either way - very frustrating and I hope Clough looks at the facts and tries something different next season.

[Bris Vegas]

RotherhamRam whilst you make good points I think you're going off track.

I'm not disputing Cloughs mentality from the outset, as during a 'confident run' whilst counter attacking we were pouring forward with numbers. I'm not disputing this.

I'm disputing his defensive mentality with the remaining 10-20 minutes of games. It's all wrong, the facts prove this.

One of NCs most notable comments is something along the lines of 'If we can't win whatever you do, don't lose'.. Can you not see how wrong this is?

If you're drawing with 10 minutes to go, there isn't a game in world football that isn't possible to win. Paul Lambert (Norwich manager) has said repeatedly that they have a mentality that goes all out for the win.

Of course there is a good thing as a good away draw (Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc) but we're playing average championship teams. Why is it beyond us to go looking for the win away at Burnley, Norwich, Coventry or Boro rather than shutting up shop for the draw. It's inexplicable.

A 0-0 away draw followed by a 1-1 home draw is only worth 2 points. If we win one game by scoring in the last minute and then lose one game by going for the win and conceding in the last minute it still gives you more points than settling for 2 draws.

[SillyBilly]

We've shown too much respect to teams at times.

[EastKentRam]

How many late goals do we need to conceede for Nigel to realise that sitting back and trying to hold on doesnt work? To stubborn and not learning from mistakes, that's why we'll never go anywhere under the current management.

[Alpha]

I agree completely with Bris Vegas and i'm desperatley struggling to blame anything other than the tactics.

I find it hard to believe it's about confidence entirely. There are other struggling teams that are low on confidence that don't go into a shell from the 70th minute. We've played them.

Nigel is too slow to respond to problems. His patience is rarely rewarded late on in games. It's often punished.

I want to believe that Derby are coming back with a bang under a Clough again. I like the romantic side to it all. I like Nigel CLough and hope he's a success with and without Derby.

But his team selections/tinkering , ridiculous substitutions, responsivness to changes in play and our teams mentality entering the closing stages of a game they are winning and sometimes drawing have really brought me to a point where i'm struggling to see how we can get far under him.

Like i said, i really like him. I would love him to do well with us. I'd be happy to be a Championship nobody for a few seasons. But our mentality at critical times is sickening. At 1-0 in the 75th minute what Derby fan can be fairly confident of victory? How many of us can be confident of a draw? Our substitutions rarely change games. Tactically we don't look adaptable at all. We set ourselves up at the begining of a game. If we're not effective nothing changes!! We just stumble along.

We'll start next season as big favourites to go down. Nigel i hope can prove himself. I hope he can reveal what a brilliant manager i'm sure he will eventually be. We can't stumble through another season. We'll go down.

[RotherhamRam]

RotherhamRam whilst you make good points I think you're going off track.

I'm not disputing Cloughs mentality from the outset, as during a 'confident run' whilst counter attacking we were pouring forward with numbers. I'm not disputing this.

I'm disputing his defensive mentality with the remaining 10-20 minutes of games. It's all wrong, the facts prove this.

One of NCs most notable comments is something along the lines of 'If we can't win whatever you do, don't lose'.. Can you not see how wrong this is?

If you're drawing with 10 minutes to go, there isn't a game in world football that isn't possible to win. Paul Lambert (Norwich manager) has said repeatedly that they have a mentality that goes all out for the win.

Of course there is a good thing as a good away draw (Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea etc) but we're playing average championship teams. Why is it beyond us to go looking for the win away at Burnley, Norwich, Coventry or Boro rather than shutting up shop for the draw. It's inexplicable.

A 0-0 away draw followed by a 1-1 home draw is only worth 2 points. If we win one game by scoring in the last minute and then lose one game by going for the win and conceding in the last minute it still gives you more points than settling for 2 draws.

One of NCs most notable comments is something along the lines of 'If we can't win whatever you do, don't lose'.. Can you not see how wrong this is?

Sorry No I can't. In the games you listed we came behind against Coventry, Reading and Norwich twice. In the QPR game we were 2-0 up and conceded in the 93rd and 95 minute of the game, we were still counter attacking up till then and Warnock said until the 93rd minute they were not in the game. Against Burnley we were never in the game and to have nicked a win would have been unfair to Burnley and fantastic to us.

The idea is not to lose games as this means you stop up, so his comment of if you can not win don't lose sounds fair too me. In your concept only winning or loingg are the only options. If we lost the games we had drawn we would be down and out.