Hartley Hare Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing The sports minister, Hugh Robertson, has said the government will consider the possibility of reintroducing standing areas at top-level football matches, 21 years after Lord Justice Taylor recommended terracing be outlawed. At the first ever meeting to discuss the issue with the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), football authorities, police and the Football Licensing Authority, which took place on Monday, Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing. In particular, he said he wanted to see whether modern terracing would be safe, technically able to be built into stadiums and capable of being policed, and whether there is demand from substantial numbers to stand. But anxious not to raise immediate expectations, Robertson told the meeting frankly that because the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, in which 96 Liverpool supporters died, led to Taylor's recommendation that standing be outlawed, the stakes are extremely high to recommend a change. If he were to do so, and there was then a major accident or incident of disorder on a terrace, Robertson said: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter." The meeting was called by the Liberal Democrat sports spokesman, Don Foster, who has tabled a private member's bill calling for clubs to be permitted safe standing areas. "I am very pleased we brought all parties together for the first time to discuss the issue," he said. "Real fans are paying high ticket prices and losing out, and I am confident safe standing can be introduced which meets all the minister's concerns. We will be gathering the required evidence, and fans must now make their voices heard." The FSF will launch an online petition calling for the introduction of safe standing areas at stadiums in England's top two divisions, where all-seating has been compulsory since 1994, as recommended by Taylor four years earlier. All the authorities represented at the meeting stated their opposition to any reintroduction of standing areas, although they no longer state that this is predominantly an issue of fan safety, rather of crowd control. The Premier League, Football League and Football Association argued that all-seat stadiums had been crucial in improving the game's fortunes and image since Hillsborough, and there is no major demand for standing. The FSF is calling for defined areas of grounds to be made available for safe standing areas, similar to those in Germany where closely spaced barriers make a crush close to impossible. The FSF points to a survey it conducted in which 90% of respondents said fans should have the choice of sitting or standing. The organisation hopes thousands will sign the online petition. Robertson stressed he is wary of considering change, but would look at all evidence presented, and would want a consensus, including the police in particular, that standing would be safe. Andy Holt, assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police, representing the Association of Chief Police Officers at the meeting, said it is up to the FSF to demonstrate that standing areas could be policed effectively and would not risk increasing disorder at matches. Malcolm Clarke, the FSF chairman, argued that such standing areas would enable fans to enjoy matches in a more traditional atmosphere. Clarke also pointed out that many supporters regularly stand at top-flight football in the all-seat stands, a practice the Football Licensing Authority considers a safety risk. "Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating," Clarke said. "We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I like having seats because a) I have tired old bones and prefer a sit down, particulaly for an evening ko. b) I like that the kids can actually watch a match instead of having their view blocked (so in our case we'd happily sit at the front so those behind could stand). I realise not everybody likes seats though and that's fine too. Maybe if they do decide to change it, a happy medium can be found to suit everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The argument about safe terracing has been won. The Germans have proved it can be done, cheaply, efficiently with little or no risk to the supporters. The question here is whether the Police will do anything they can to block it. As stated in the article they have voiced concerns about crowd "control". The risk of serious violence inside a football ground now is non-existent and a safe standing area in a modern football stadium could be very easily done if all parties agreed to it and worked out the best way to make it happen. I'm not holding my breath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 would be fantastic........ won't happen..... H and S brigade:frown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 It can be done surely, with sensible controlled measures. Monitoring the number of fans in any one area would be a place to start. It's odd though, if you look at things like Glastonbury (not in a stadium I know but the perimeter is fenced anyway) it's always mega heaving and folk will still get hurt - why aren't they made to sit down? They're jumping about far more than footie fans. Just a thought. Oh, just to answer my own question - being made to sit down would detract from the atmosphere of the event and it wouldn't be the same would it? The irony.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I was born in 1994. It's taken a whole life-time for politicians to realise that most fans don't want all-seater stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I was born in 1994. It's taken a whole life-time for politicians to realise that most fans don't want all-seater stadiums. My personal opinion is that there should never, ever be a return to terracing of any form, never, ever, ever. I like sitting at the games, I have had my 30 years of standing on a packed terrace, and as soon as I could afford to I moved to the seats. Anyone who says that the atmosphere can't be replicated in a seated area has obviously never sat in the C stand during the dark days of football hooliganism....happy happy days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastKentRam Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Really hope this happens, not getting my hopes up though. Thousands stand every week at every ground anynway, might as well give them an area to do this which is safer than standing between plastic chairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I really hope this goes ahead. I don't really mind sitting down or standing up, but people should have a choice. It seems to make sense to have a standing 'stand', and anyone else can sit in the other three stands. I'll generally go with the flow at away matches, but prefer standing. If we have a chance I'll stand up, but often get a gobful from a parent/child combo, or an older supporter, which I can understand. But we should have the right to stand definitely. Strange how the importance of the game defines if/how many people stand. Leicest, forest and Leeds are always stood. Look at other teams like Man Utd, West Ham, Liverpool, standing away seems pretty standard fair, no matter who they are playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartley Hare Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/12830836.stm The Premier League will oppose moves to reintroduce standing areas at top-flight football matches in England. The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) is to launch an online petition calling for the return of standing areas in the top two divisions. But Premier League spokesman Dan Johnson said: "Our view is that the benefits of all-seater stadia far outweigh the return of standing areas." Terraces were banned following the Hillsborough disaster in 1989. The issue of allowing some standing areas has been revisited a number of times since all-seater stadiums became compulsory in 1994. Kate Hoey tried to back a scheme when she was sports minister in 2001 but the-then Government blocked it. The FSF held a meeting on Monday with representatives from the police, Government and football authorities. FSF chairman Malcolm Clarke argued that many fans already stand all match despite having seats which is viewed as a safety risk. Clarke told the Guardian: "Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating. We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced." Sports minister Hugh Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing but played down any likelihood of a change to the law. Referring to the prospect of an accident or crowd trouble if terraces were reintroduced, Robertson told the meeting: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter." The Government insists no compelling case has been made to bring back standing areas. "Football grounds are safer and more comfortable than they were 20 years ago," said a spokesman for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. "All-seater stadia are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans and have been a contributing factor to the increased diversity of those attending matches in recent years. "The Government appreciates that there are some supporters who would like to see the return of standing areas at football stadia, but do not believe that a compelling case has been made to change the policy." Premier League spokesman Johnson added: "They [all-seater stadiums] have led to more women and more children attending the games and no matter how safe standing can be made, seating is always safer. "We will not be encouraging the Government to change the law." Well, I guess the PL don't want to have to think about reduced ticket prices in the standing areas..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghRam Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 people on this thread saying they hope it doesn't happen as they like to sit, well that's fine as well, the whole stadium wouldn't be standing. It's perfectly feasible and safe to having standing sections and I very much hope that they can push through with this, not holding my breath though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Marina Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'd love to see the return of terracing, whenever I've been to a terraced ground, the atmosphere's always been better, people don't really have much of an option to join in, as they don't have the easy option of sitting on their arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I would love it to happen,and Derby County would benefit from the better atmosphere it would give. The problem is its highly unlikely to happen because of the likes of Ibrox and hillsborough( although hillsboroughs disaster didnt happen because of terracing,it happened because of fans storming turnstiles without tickets). If they can guarantee a safe standing area it would help but I dont know how that could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 poor stewarding outside the ground not having ticket checks stopping ticketless fans getting near the turnstiles and stopping busses on the way into Sheffield 40 minutes before kick off creating a surge of arrivals the turnstiles couldnt cope with didnt help either. (I witnessed this being done as we were driving from Sheffield to manchester for our game at Old Trafford on that day.) Mind you this is a thread for debating the benefits of Safe Standing - not for rehashing old arguments about Hillsborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 i was only making a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 What days eh.....being swept along uncontrollably on a wave of deliriously happy chanting rams supporters..... Who amongst you hasn't experienced such atmosphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 i was only making a point. no worries, just wanted to avoid a slanging match on Hillsborough we used to get on the DET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 poor stewarding outside the ground not having ticket checks stopping ticketless fans getting near the turnstiles and stopping busses on the way into Sheffield 40 minutes before kick off creating a surge of arrivals the turnstiles couldnt cope with didnt help either. (I witnessed this being done as we were driving from Sheffield to manchester for our game at Old Trafford on that day.) Mind you this is a thread for debating the benefits of Safe Standing - not for rehashing old arguments about Hillsborough. I was also at that game having driven across snake pass from east anglia, What sticks in my mind was not the win but the many cars stopped by the road on the way back with the passangers outside hugging and crying, not just liverpool fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansea ram Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 It seemed to work at Plymouth. Standing at the bottom, and seating higher up behind it, all along the centre stand. Also at the vetch. The east stand had standing at the bottom, and the seats above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Firstly, just to make absolutely clear, the campaign is calling for the introduction of SAFE standing areas, not the crumbling wrecks that many of us stood on in the 70's and 80's. Many people get it into their heads that they'll be standing on terraces tens of thousands deep, with only a dozen or so crush barriers in their way. The system that is being proposed is the German model of having two or three rows of fans, then a barrier, another two or three rows, then another barrier and so on which makes the possibilty of a crush impossible. Of course this would be only in an allocated area of the ground (North Stand and South Stand at Pride Park for example). Currently you have the same situation up and down the country of fans standing in front of, or on top of their seats "illegally" and "dangerously", the introduction of standing areas to give fans the choice of standing or sitting would eliminate confrontation with stewards, the police and even sometimes your fellow fan (nothing more annoying than having hundreds of people stood infront of you when you just want to sit and watch the game). Allowing fans to have the CHOICE would not only avoid these problems, but probably result in a better atmosphere, and would allow clubs to lower ticket prices to a level which is accessable to the traditional working class fan. This is also possible without meaning the clubs lose money as according to the Government's "Green Guide" which is what is used in the lower leagues to determine standing capacities, you can safely fit 1.8 people in the same space as 1 person who is sitting down. This means that you could get almost twice the number of people buying burgers, pints, programmes etc, which would be offset against the lower ticket price. There is the arguement that this would open the floodgates for hooliganism to return to our stadiums, but I don't believe this would be the case. All seaters haven't exactly got rid of the hooligan element have they? West Ham v Millwall in the Carling Cup, Birmingham v Villa in the same competition - the two biggest flare ups in recent times have both occured in all-seater stadiums. The arguement against standing based on "crowd control" is rubbish as the two have no connection. Hooligans will fight whether the stadium is all seated or otherwise. Provided they are ticketed and policed correctly, standing areas like those in Germany are 100% safe and I fully back the FSF's campaign. http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing Good website that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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