Sheff UTD (A) - Match Thread

[brady1993]

27 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Yes, our defenders try only for distance. Their headers go over our midfield and straight to theirs.

I'll admit I can't say I've noticed that particularly but don't disbelieve you. 

Do you think it's player quality, tactical or mentality ? 

[MadAmster]

2 hours ago, TINMANTED said:

In stroms defence,his view was seriously obstructed when setting up the wall by a united player jumping up and down in front of him,obviously a tactic employed by them on free kicks

Whose idea was it to have Ossie as the outside man in the wall and then not have him jumping?

With regard to my post to which you replied, there is no criticism, implied or otherwise, of JWZ. He was where he should be, the issue was the wall.

[MadAmster]

33 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

I think it’s worth pointing out that Burrows as a left footer was also lined up to take it. 
You’d need a six man wall to cover both options. 
I think we have to accept that Hamer put it in exactly the right area and JWZ couldn’t get to it. 
The ball curled from outside the wall and snuck in.

The 3 man wall would have been sufficient if the outside man in the wall had either jumped or been 4 inches taller. No criticism of JWZ from me. No keeper can cover post to post. He covers most and the wall covers the rest. 

[Anag Ram]

9 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I'll admit I can't say I've noticed that particularly but don't disbelieve you. 

Do you think it's player quality, tactical or mentality ? 

Probably player quality TBH. It’s been going on for a while now. Once you’ve seen it, you can’t unsee it 😊

It might just as easily be a lack of communication from the midfield. If you’re focussing on the ball you need a bit of help as to where your teammates are. 

[Carnero]

13 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Whose idea was it to have Ossie as the outside man in the wall and then not have him jumping?

With regard to my post to which you replied, there is no criticism, implied or otherwise, of JWZ. He was where he should be, the issue was the wall.

Mendez-Laing was going to be the outside man in a wall of 4, but ended up splitting off to cover a wide Sheff Utd player.

[RoyMac5]

14 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

The 3 man wall would have been sufficient if the outside man in the wall had either jumped or been 4 inches taller. No criticism of JWZ from me. No keeper can cover post to post. He covers most and the wall covers the rest. 

How can anyone other than the keeper know whether the wall is covering the area it should? 

[jimtastic56]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

How can anyone other than the keeper know whether the wall is covering the area it should? 

You can get an outfield player to stand on the ball and have a look . But Jacob will have to remember that some players can bend the ball 3 yards in this League . Roy Keane said on Sky this weekend that a Prem goalie should be fined a weeks wages  for not lining his wall up properly . Bit harsh but true . 

[Leeds Ram]

7 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I think shouting aggressively at someone and calling them a paedophile should be a criminal offence….might make the morons think twice about chanting it. I think that is beyond rude and no other employee would  have to tolerate it.

If we measured what you could chant at football games by what employees legally would have to tolerate at work you wouldn't hear 90% of the chants or remarks which are made at football. I agree it's really grim behaviour but it being grim isn't sufficient reason to criminalise a behaviour. I'm really cautious about bringing overt morality into speech laws though and recognise not everyone is the same. I think it should be seen as socially more shameful than it is and some form of pressure should occur when that type of chanting is going on. The whole sex offender chant is a wider issue than just as well as I've heard plenty of other clubs do it at other players who have no criminal record or allegations either. 

[angieram]

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

As in from defensive headers on our part ? 

I've not particularly seen that as a problem if I'm honest mostly. I think that we deal with for the most part. 

I think it's when we go long that's the bigger issue as we almost always lose the ball when we do. (I'm not including balls to run onto here. It's obvious as to why but it's not as obvious as to why we want to do it at times because at times we are doing when it feels completely unnecessary. And we've showed that we can play our way out. 

I was certainly a bit disappointed when Z struggled to kick down into the channels for our forwards to run on to, near the end. He was either getting it too central presenting Soutter with an easy header out (he's a man-mountain, though) or kicking into touch. 

[jono]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

If we measured what you could chant at football games by what employees legally would have to tolerate at work you wouldn't hear 90% of the chants or remarks which are made at football. I agree it's really grim behaviour but it being grim isn't sufficient reason to criminalise a behaviour. I'm really cautious about bringing overt morality into speech laws though and recognise not everyone is the same. I think it should be seen as socially more shameful than it is and some form of pressure should occur when that type of chanting is going on. The whole sex offender chant is a wider issue than just as well as I've heard plenty of other clubs do it at other players who have no criminal record or allegations either. 

I think it really is about “society” Like you I dislike criminalising things just because we don’t approve of  them. This stuff is to most of us simply distasteful. Its crude, vulgar and unpleasant; but criminal ? Nope. It’s for us as a “society” to gather round and make it uncomfortable, to establish norms that we all see as fundamental. The law is one step further and for me often a step too far. I’d be more than happy though if the club identified those and chose not to sell them tickets. ! 

[Ambitious]

5 hours ago, Carnero said:

Mendez-Laing was going to be the outside man in a wall of 4, but ended up splitting off to cover a wide Sheff Utd player.

Extremely well worked by Sheff Utd in that case, essentially we played into their trap/plans. 

[DavesaRam]

If the chanting was racist, the stewards and police would be on it like a ton of bricks. And as already mentioned if you are even just caught on camera in a political protest march you can be arrested. You can also be arrested for what you post on Facebook. And the previous government passed the laws which make all this possible. The definition of hate crime/racist abuse is now so vague that you can be arrested for almost anything of the authorities so decided. So why haven't they decided to act against this sort of abuse which is ruining the matchday experience?

[angieram]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

If the chanting was racist, the stewards and police would be on it like a ton of bricks. And as already mentioned if you are even just caught on camera in a political protest march you can be arrested. You can also be arrested for what you post on Facebook. And the previous government passed the laws which make all this possible. The definition of hate crime/racist abuse is now so vague that you can be arrested for almost anything of the authorities so decided. So why haven't they decided to act against this sort of abuse which is ruining the matchday experience?

I have to say I've never heard anything remotely racist from any of our away supporters and for that I'mquite grateful. We're quite a multicultural fanbase.

Homophobic,  misogynistic, agist, anything else is fair game! 

 

[brady1993]

6 hours ago, angieram said:

I was certainly a bit disappointed when Z struggled to kick down into the channels for our forwards to run on to, near the end. He was either getting it too central presenting Soutter with an easy header out (he's a man-mountain, though) or kicking into touch. 

That's the thing though, kicking accurately into channels is difficult to do regularly and the player getting it is marked in some ways by the touchline.

On that subject I think it was notable how indecisive it felt at times whether we were going to play it short or long from the goal kick. Personally I think with the side we have 90% of time it should be going out short and it's looked better when we have. Going long most of the time is just giving up possession cheaply.

[IlsonDerby]

20 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

On the issue of the away fans I'm not really sure much of this can be policed at all. Moaning about people chucking beer in the concourse, or it being overly full as people are singing good and bad chants is fine but the club can't be expected to do anything about that realistically. I wouldn't want them to be doing anything about it either if I'm totally honest as it's not their place to criminalise or regulate that kind of behaviour. Same with the chants about Sharp, yes they're oafish and offensive but they're not criminal and I don't think they should be either. 

Standing is a different matter. It strikes me as obvious that clubs should have a large section for safe standing and a section with seating for those who don't wish/cannot stand. That way if people stood in the seating areas you could have a 3 strike policy before a season's ban was put in place. That seems easy to police and a real effective action can occur as a consequence of poor behaviour. 

I go semi-regularly to away games and have only been to Blackburn so far this year but that was a perfectly lovely trip. I didn't have a problem with where I was and it was all good. Then again, at Peterborough in the past or other trips I've seen the oafish elements who are plain rude, obnoxious, and probably not interested in the football at all. As my partner has ASD, I carefully regulate which games she goes to as over the years I've got a sense of when issues will emerge. So, I choose grounds with large concourses, multiple exit routes, and places where we won't have to take a packed train full of yobs with the emotional consideration of a damp sponge. 

Unfortunately, football like any other hobby will attract an element of this crowd, with its emphasis on drink and away days maybe it will be a disproportionate number. Apart from the club regularly trying to cultivate a more welcoming fan culture I'm not sure what they could really do about this though. With most of this crowd (unfortunately, I know a couple of people from my old school who are part of this) a show of real force does work. I've seen it on the train when they push and push police until they get the handcuffs and notebook out they suddenly start pleading and behave themselves. It's all a bit pathetic and I had a little chuckle to myself. So maybe if the police/stewards did kick out a couple for misbehaving that would affect some of the mob. But again, if it's merely for rude/inconsiderate behaviour I'm not sure I'd want that kind of policing in the first place. 

Freedom of speech which makes what they’re singing not criminal doesn’t mean they are free from any consequences of their actions. The club would be in their right to ban anyone who brings the club into disrepute. 

[Ian Buxton's Bat]

44 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Freedom of speech which makes what they’re singing not criminal doesn’t mean they are free from any consequences of their actions. The club would be in their right to ban anyone who brings the club into disrepute. 

It’s not free speech. It’s wilful perpetuation of lies/unsubstantiated allegations.

I’m not a legal expert but I believe the Public Order Act does actually make such chants a criminal offence if it causes “harassment, alarm or distress”

On the civil side, if Sharp identified anyone and chose to sue them for defamation, he could empty their bank account in a jiffy. Look at Joey Barton’s unsubstantiated comments about Jeremy Vine.

[angieram]

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

That's the thing though, kicking accurately into channels is difficult to do regularly and the player getting it is marked in some ways by the touchline.

On that subject I think it was notable how indecisive it felt at times whether we were going to play it short or long from the goal kick. Personally I think with the side we have 90% of time it should be going out short and it's looked better when we have. Going long most of the time is just giving up possession cheaply.

I'm referring to a specific period in the game when we'd taken off our midfield link and loaded with forwards. You're going to play out from the back - to who?

[Tamworthram]

29 minutes ago, Ian Buxton's Bat said:

It’s not free speech. It’s wilful perpetuation of lies/unsubstantiated allegations.

I’m not a legal expert but I believe the Public Order Act does actually make such chants a criminal offence if it causes “harassment, alarm or distress”

On the civil side, if Sharp identified anyone and chose to sue them for defamation, he could empty their bank account in a jiffy. Look at Joey Barton’s unsubstantiated comments about Jeremy Vine.

You beat me to it.

There is a misconception that “freedom of speech” means you can say whatever you want, whenever you want, without fear of consequences (including legal).

[HorsforthRam]

41 minutes ago, angieram said:

I'm referring to a specific period in the game when we'd taken off our midfield link and loaded with forwards. You're going to play out from the back - to who?

I get where you’re coming from but it appears neither approach was working. I can’t remember looking dangerously from a single long ball played from our back line, especially second half. The only time was when Harness got the ball in the middle and had time to pick a forward pass but didn’t 

Edited Tuesday at 07:17 by HorsforthRam

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I'm referring to a specific period in the game when we'd taken off our midfield link and loaded with forwards. You're going to play out from the back - to who?

To be honest I was speaking more generally.

But still we'd have probably been better off trying to find a way to play out even in those circumstances because you've got no target to hit really going long. Even if it's just a bit of play to try encourage the press. 

One of our biggest strengths is getting in behind. In order to create that space you need to draw the opposition forward. But if they see you are going long from the goal kick it's much easier to deny that space in behind as well they can be more set into a compact shape.