What Rams player was worth the most in their peak?

[oldtimeram]

On 31/12/2022 at 22:55, Henrycav81 said:

Caskey and Moreland had houses in Oakwood when it was first being built in the late 70’s,they backed onto Darwin school and they used to watch some of our school matches I don’t think they were good enough to get in Darwin’s team to be honest 

Was Horace Horton still the caretaker at Darwin then?  He used to coach badminton on a Saturday morning 

[Duracell]

Honestly surprised we're 5 pages in and only one person has suggested Bloomer.

273 goals in 419 top flight games, and 28 goals in 23 England appearances. With that ratio, if they played more international games at the time, nobody would be able to touch his record. He remains the second-highest goal scorer in the top flight, beaten only by Jimmy Greaves.

A lot of the players mentioned were outstanding, elite players, but there were other options out there if you missed out on them as a target. Bloomer was the footballer of his era, a cut above in the same way as Ronaldo or Messi are now. It's remarkable that someone born 150 years ago before the age of celebrity footballers made such an impact on the club that we still sing about him before every home game.

[Henrycav81]

1 hour ago, oldtimeram said:

Was Horace Horton still the caretaker at Darwin then?  He used to coach badminton on a Saturday morning 

He passed away around that time 1978ish I was at Darwin 1976-79 his wife stayed on in the caretakers bungalow for a few years 

He was a top badminton coach Darwin and Henry Cavendish were among the top schools in the country at badminton 

[OoooMarkWright]

3 hours ago, Duracell said:

Honestly surprised we're 5 pages in and only one person has suggested Bloomer.

273 goals in 419 top flight games, and 28 goals in 23 England appearances. With that ratio, if they played more international games at the time, nobody would be able to touch his record. He remains the second-highest goal scorer in the top flight, beaten only by Jimmy Greaves.

A lot of the players mentioned were outstanding, elite players, but there were other options out there if you missed out on them as a target. Bloomer was the footballer of his era, a cut above in the same way as Ronaldo or Messi are now. It's remarkable that someone born 150 years ago before the age of celebrity footballers made such an impact on the club that we still sing about him before every home game.

Probably because the original post stated you must have seen them play. Unless someone’s been in a freezer for a fair few years, I think that rules Bloomer out of the running for this thread.

[Duracell]

1 hour ago, enachops said:

Probably because the original post stated you must have seen them play. Unless someone’s been in a freezer for a fair few years, I think that rules Bloomer out of the running for this thread.

You’re making a lot of assumptions about my personal life which I don’t appreciate.

[oldtimeram]

18 hours ago, Henrycav81 said:

He passed away around that time 1978ish I was at Darwin 1976-79 his wife stayed on in the caretakers bungalow for a few years 

He was a top badminton coach Darwin and Henry Cavendish were among the top schools in the country at badminton 

Yes, he was a very good coach and helped my game enormously and got me up to county standard.  A nice chap too.

[BaaLocks]

On 02/01/2023 at 14:54, Duracell said:

Honestly surprised we're 5 pages in and only one person has suggested Bloomer.

273 goals in 419 top flight games, and 28 goals in 23 England appearances. With that ratio, if they played more international games at the time, nobody would be able to touch his record. He remains the second-highest goal scorer in the top flight, beaten only by Jimmy Greaves.

A lot of the players mentioned were outstanding, elite players, but there were other options out there if you missed out on them as a target. Bloomer was the footballer of his era, a cut above in the same way as Ronaldo or Messi are now. It's remarkable that someone born 150 years ago before the age of celebrity footballers made such an impact on the club that we still sing about him before every home game.

I always thought that Steve Bloomer had the highest ratio of goals per game for England but I looked at this and saw that Vivian Woodward is mentioned. Got to be honest, I'd never heard of him. I think games tended to have a lot more goals in them back in those days (look at most clubs record score and it's always a hundred years or so ago). But still, I agree, halve his strike rate and he's still a one in three finisher at club level - which puts it into perspective.

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/england_national_football_team/england-players-strike-rates/

[MadAmster]

Just going by the stats...

352 goals in 599 matches in 2 spells with Derby and one with M'boro in between at an average of a goal every 1.7 matches.

28 goals for England in 23 matches, that's 1.21 goals per game. That's a record that doesn't look like it would ever get broken by anybody making a minimum of 10 games for England.

Averages like that he'd be £200M+ these days. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, Steve Bloomer.

[MadAmster]

2 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

I always thought that Steve Bloomer had the highest ratio of goals per game for England but I looked at this and saw that Vivian Woodward is mentioned. Got to be honest, I'd never heard of him. I think games tended to have a lot more goals in them back in those days (look at most clubs record score and it's always a hundred years or so ago). But still, I agree, halve his strike rate and he's still a one in three finisher at club level - which puts it into perspective.

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/england_footy/england_national_football_team/england-players-strike-rates/

Woodward did worse than Bloomer with regard to goals and games. He got 23 in 29 games for England between 1903 and 1911 @ 0.8 goals per game. Bloomer 28 in 23 games between 1895 and 1907 @1.21 goals per game.

At club level Bloomer scored 352 in 599 games. 1 goal every 1.7 games. Woodward scored 97 in 244. 1 goal every 2.5 games 

myfootballfacts seems to have this wrong.

[MadAmster]

On 31/12/2022 at 14:26, Bob The Badger said:

Todd is literally the best player I've ever seen with Charlie a close second. 

His lack of caps was largely down to being played out of position and his face not fitting. 

I tend to agree on King Kev, but not sure what Toddy's weaknesses were. 

Todd and Nish both set records but you don't think they'd get half of what Grealish went for?

Forward players always go for more than midfielders or defenders with keepers a distant 4th...

[DavesaRam]

On 31/12/2022 at 13:08, i-Ram said:

Some good old partisan bias going on here. £87m is the record fee for a defender ever and we have Colin Todd being pitched at a cool £100m. Great player, but not exceptional - had some weaknesses hence perhaps the number of his international caps.
Kevin Hector similarly would never have been a £100m footballer in my book although someone thought Grealish actually was. The only player on our books who I think might have fetched £50m plus at his peak was Shilton. World class Keeper. 

Actually Todd’s international career was limited by Alf Ramsey being a bitch. Having bern established in the England team, Ramsey then put him in the under 23’s which meant Todd would have no summer break at all. Todd declined, and was declined by Ramsey, who would rather stick to his guns and make a point rather than utilise the greatest defensive pairing England could ever have had.

[DavesaRam]

On 02/01/2023 at 19:57, Duracell said:

You’re making a lot of assumptions about my personal life which I don’t appreciate.

So does the light go out when the freezer door gets closed?

[Hans Datdo-Dishes]

Didn't Vivian Woodward design the kit as well?

[sage]

Derek Hales £310,000

[richinspain]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

Derek Hales £310,000

Mick Co-op on a free was still far worse value than Hales!

[BaaLocks]

5 hours ago, MadAmster said:

Woodward did worse than Bloomer with regard to goals and games. He got 23 in 29 games for England between 1903 and 1911 @ 0.8 goals per game. Bloomer 28 in 23 games between 1895 and 1907 @1.21 goals per game.

At club level Bloomer scored 352 in 599 games. 1 goal every 1.7 games. Woodward scored 97 in 244. 1 goal every 2.5 games 

myfootballfacts seems to have this wrong.

Wikipedia seem to have this wrong as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Woodward

And this site says the same, 29 goals in 23 games - this beats Steve Bloomer's 28 goals in 23 games https://spartacus-educational.com/SPURSwoodward.htm

[BaaLocks]

On 31/12/2022 at 13:08, i-Ram said:

The only player on our books who I think might have fetched £50m plus at his peak was Shilton. World class Keeper. 

Not when he was with us, way past his best by that point even if he was still England's Number One. If we're going to play by those rules then Hughie Gallacher (387 goals in 545 games, though only 38 in 51 for us) would be in there. Peter Doherty* - described as the greatest Irish footballer of all time by some - and Raich Carter, who played for both Derby County and Derbyshire Cricket Club.

* - and no, he didn't go on to form The Libertines

[i-Ram]

14 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Not when he was with us, way past his best by that point even if he was still England's Number One. If we're going to play by those rules then Hughie Gallacher (387 goals in 545 games, though only 38 in 51 for us) would be in there. Peter Doherty* - described as the greatest Irish footballer of all time by some - and Raich Carter, who played for both Derby County and Derbyshire Cricket Club.

* - and no, he didn't go on to form The Libertines

Don’t start me on Pete Doherty of the Libertines

 

[kevinhectoring]

On 02/01/2023 at 14:54, Duracell said:

273 goals in 419 top flight games, and 28 goals in 23 England appearances. With that ratio, ...

Some guy called Brian who played for Sunderland and Middlesboro would put the club ratio to shame. 251 league goals in 274 matches. But Bloomer’s international stats are ridiculous 

[MadAmster]

11 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Wikipedia seem to have this wrong as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Woodward

And this site says the same, 29 goals in 23 games - this beats Steve Bloomer's 28 goals in 23 games https://spartacus-educational.com/SPURSwoodward.htm

It seems someone has now changed the Wiki page to 29 in 23 which would, indeed, put him 1 ahead of Bloomer. I had already contacted myfootballfacts pointing out their error, seems I'll have to amend my comments to them pointing out 10th place is correct but they've transposed the goals and games data.