The Ukraine War

[1of4]

21 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Because thousands of people will die - on both sides.

Russia not invading Ukraine would save even more lives and not disrupt the lives of millions.

[1of4]

12 minutes ago, cstand said:

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/ukraine-russian-invasion-putin-explainer-2518946

This is a news channel reiterating the reason Putin gave for waging war on another country.

Care to have another go at giving a legitimate reason for why Russian soldiers are killing innocent civilians in Ukraine?

[Leeds Ram]

On 28/02/2022 at 09:50, BaaLocks said:

I have no doubt that Russia interfered in the election of Trump and Brexit, it is a tactic of modern 'warfare' on all sides. I guess my point was that it is on all sides. Indeed, while we are not the power we once were in all this you'd have to say that Johnson and his crew are mortally comprimised in all of this wrt the Russia report, party funding and other elements.

One of the clear benefits of having leaders in power for a very long time (Russia, China) is that they are able to execute long term plans - I'm not saying Russia intended to invade Ukraine in 2015 but Brexit was a more destabilising impact on the British economy (even the most fervent Brexiteers can see this) than almost any armed conflict would do. Strangely, if Trump was in power now we probably wouldn't have got to this as he had a relation with Putin that could have at least have allowed for discussion.

The only problem with your argument is that Trump has said publically he thinks Putin invading Ukraine is a great idea....  Executing 'long term plans' very often leads to the decay of institutions, the dropping off of support and a small cadre of slavish followers unable or unwilling to tell you that your latest 'plan' is disastrous. My PhD thesis that I've just finished the first draft of is focused specifically on the inability of decisionist leaders to provide sovereignty over the long term. 

[cstand]

14 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

This is a news channel reiterating the reason Putin gave for waging war on another country.

Care to have another go at giving a legitimate reason for why Russian soldiers are killing innocent civilians in Ukraine?

They are Legitimate reasons in Putins brain.

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by cstand

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I bet surrendering to the Germans would have saved a few lives too

We didn't surrender to the Germans because we had the military might to fight back and, eventually, win. Ukraine is asking civlians and pick up arms to fight against a country with a higher percentage of GDP spent on military than nearly any other country. For now, meaningless deaths should not be the answer, negotiation and discussion is the way forward and - in turn - that should lead to a peaceful situation that will allow Ukraine to define it's own future. Not tomorrow, not in the next few years but over time and without the cemetries overflowing with grieving mothers.

No more to say on this point - not here for bickering.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Care to have another go at giving a legitimate reason for why Russian soldiers are killing innocent civilians in Ukraine?

Not sure if that is directed at me but I haven't had a previous go, there is no legitimate reason.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Russia not invading Ukraine would save even more lives and not disrupt the lives of millions.

It would, you are right, but they have.

[cstand]

Just now, BaaLocks said:

We didn't surrender to the Germans because we had the military might to fight back and, eventually, win. Ukraine is asking civlians and pick up arms to fight against a country with a higher percentage of GDP spent on military than nearly any other country. For now, meaningless deaths should not be the answer, negotiation and discussion is the way forward and - in turn - that should lead to a peaceful situation that will allow Ukraine to define it's own future. Not tomorrow, not in the next few years but over time and without the cemetries overflowing with grieving mothers.

No more to say on this point - not here for bickering.

I think you have made some very valid points. No complaints from me.

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

 

Care to have another go at giving a legitimate reason for why Russian soldiers are killing innocent civilians in Ukraine?

There is no legitimate reason. As there isn't when it's the blood on America and their allies hands. None at all. That's the most tragic cost of any war. 

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq. Thousands of them to Coalition forces. 

Politics failed and now the cost is war. 

America disregards life quite freely at times.  Hard to believe maybe but I think Russia has shown restraint in it's attack. 

I know you're going to show me pictures of "Russian restraint" buy I'm talking about in the context of yet another unnecessary (imo) war. 

The only defence of Putin you will see here is focused on what surrounds the war in Ukraine. There's been a couple of trolls suggesting people are apologising for Putin or justifying the war. But I'm fairly confident they don't even believe that themselves. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Alpha

[BaaLocks]

56 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

The only problem with your argument is that Trump has said publically he thinks Putin invading Ukraine is a great idea....  Executing 'long term plans' very often leads to the decay of institutions, the dropping off of support and a small cadre of slavish followers unable or unwilling to tell you that your latest 'plan' is disastrous. My PhD thesis that I've just finished the first draft of is focused specifically on the inability of decisionist leaders to provide sovereignty over the long term. 

Interesting you use the word slavish - givent the word comes from Slav tribes conscripted to work by the Romans. Anyway, aside from that.

It's basically the 'Red or Dead' position for the modern times. I haven't written a PhD thesis on the topic so I won't pretend to know more than you on the topic but I will say that many countries have achieved change through execution of long term plans. Scotland is likely to, possibly Catalonia, many Caribbean islands and former British Empire territories that we owned in the name of our own empirical expansion - some of which willingly went through the status of protectorate first.

Look, nobody on here is going to be getting on the phone to tell Putin to retreat, hopefully nobody on here is going to pick up a gun and fight in Ukraine, and more than anything hopefully nobody has loved ones in Ukraine who are affected by this terrible situation.

I have no interest what so ever in providing more than perspective from a different angle and if I have got one person to think about this differently then I'm content with that. But this is not a topic to be playing internet sparring over (not saying you are btw but I'm in mid-sentence so please forgive me) and I couldn't really care less if FunkyRam819 or whoever thinks I'm an apologist for despots, that they think I would have surrendered to the Nazis or that I don't know what I'm on about.

So I'm happy to help if people are interested, if they are not then OK, and if they are here to try and somehow own me on a forum then good luck with that - not playing.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

The last bit is true he's not a genocidal lunatic but he is a dangerous expansionist leader who needs to be stopped. The Russian military are not making the gains they wanted nor are they being greeted as liberators which many have commented Putin thought may have happened. If anything this invasion highlights how weak, unorganised and out of touch the Russian military are. Ukraine despite reports are simply the latest in a line of moves from Putin to expand territory and reimagine Soviet power. The fight for Ukraine cannot therefore be considered as just a Ukrainian one but rather a genuine fight for the future of Eastern Europe. You'd just let Putin bear his teeth and destroy a country's sovereignty, it's hardly reassuring for anyone in Finland, Poland, Romania, Estonia etc. 

Btw in 1940, the UK had such little firepower or armour (most was lost at Dunkirk) that we largely relied upon small arms and called up the old home guard to defend against a possible imminent invasion.  

Putin was never going to be greeted as a liberator west of the Dnieper - anyone who says he would hasn't read a line on the situation. And I agree with others that if he really wanted to push on through he would have used much stronger tactics than shown to date - this is the first few jabs of the opening round I am afraid. The fact he didn't send in the 40 mile convoy from the off is clear statement to that.

If I may, please try not to conflate Soviet and Russian aspirations - they are not the same. Russia believes parts of Ukraine is theirs because it has been since the time of Catherine the Great - there is no hammer and sickle at play here. And they do not believe that about Poland, Finland, Estonia etc.

1940 - we'll keep that one for another day.

[1of4]

8 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

We didn't surrender to the Germans because we had the military might to fight back and, eventually, win. Ukraine is asking civlians and pick up arms to fight against a country with a higher percentage of GDP spent on military than nearly any other country. For now, meaningless deaths should not be the answer, negotiation and discussion is the way forward and - in turn - that should lead to a peaceful situation that will allow Ukraine to define it's own future. Not tomorrow, not in the next few years but over time and without the cemetries overflowing with grieving mothers.

No more to say on this point - not here for bickering.

Ukraine was defining its own future, well thats until they were invaded by another country. 

If as you say Ukraine should surrender to save lives. Then play the long game to gain their freedom and the ability to devine their own future. But haven't Ukraine already been through this process, gaining these rights as an independent country with the break up of the Soviet Union.

[Ghost of Clough]

14 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

We didn't surrender to the Germans because we had the military might to fight back and, eventually, win. Ukraine is asking civlians and pick up arms to fight against a country with a higher percentage of GDP spent on military than nearly any other country. For now, meaningless deaths should not be the answer, negotiation and discussion is the way forward and - in turn - that should lead to a peaceful situation that will allow Ukraine to define it's own future. Not tomorrow, not in the next few years but over time and without the cemetries overflowing with grieving mothers.

No more to say on this point - not here for bickering.

We only had the military might to fight back and win because of the help from other countries.

Putin seems to have skipped past the negotiation stage, don't you think? I'm really not sure what you expect the Ukrainians to do when their country is being invaded, and the blame for 'meaningless deaths' is on Putin, not the people of Ukraine.

[WhiteHorseRam]

I am now thinking this subject isn't right for a football forum. I fully understand @David's reticence.

Thousands of people are dying. I have composed some long responses to posters based on my own knowledge -  stared at them - and deleted. 

This is the most dangerous moment I have witnessed in my lifetime. I don't want to arguing with FunkyRam819 as Norwich goes up in smoke.

 

[sage]

48 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

We didn't surrender to the Germans because we had the military might to fight back and, eventually, win. Ukraine is asking civlians and pick up arms to fight against a country with a higher percentage of GDP spent on military than nearly any other country. For now, meaningless deaths should not be the answer, negotiation and discussion is the way forward and - in turn - that should lead to a peaceful situation that will allow Ukraine to define it's own future. Not tomorrow, not in the next few years but over time and without the cemetries overflowing with grieving mothers.

No more to say on this point - not here for bickering.

We didn't. We played for time till Germany declared war on Russia then Japan.

[Stive Pesley]

4 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I am now thinking this subject isn't right for a football forum. I fully understand @David's reticence.

Thousands of people are dying. I have composed some long responses to posters based on my own knowledge -  stared at them - and deleted. 

This is the most dangerous moment I have witnessed in my lifetime. I don't want to arguing with FunkyRam819 as Norwich goes up in smoke.

 

FWIW I think we've all been playing nicely - even when disagreeing on stuff. I'm glad the topic was approved as I've read a lot of interesting viewpoints that I otherwise wouldn't have thought about. 

But you're right - it does feel like frightening times

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

You'd just let Putin bear his teeth

I hope you've spell-checked your thesis

[Leeds Ram]

59 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Interesting you use the word slavish - givent the word comes from Slav tribes conscripted to work by the Romans. Anyway, aside from that.

It's basically the 'Red or Dead' position for the modern times. I haven't written a PhD thesis on the topic so I won't pretend to know more than you on the topic but I will say that many countries have achieved change through execution of long term plans. Scotland is likely to, possibly Catalonia, many Caribbean islands and former British Empire territories that we owned in the name of our own empirical expansion - some of which willingly went through the status of protectorate first.

Look, nobody on here is going to be getting on the phone to tell Putin to retreat, hopefully nobody on here is going to pick up a gun and fight in Ukraine, and more than anything hopefully nobody has loved ones in Ukraine who are affected by this terrible situation.

I have no interest what so ever in providing more than perspective from a different angle and if I have got one person to think about this differently then I'm content with that. But this is not a topic to be playing internet sparring over (not saying you are btw but I'm in mid-sentence so please forgive me) and I couldn't really care less if FunkyRam819 or whoever thinks I'm an apologist for despots, that they think I would have surrendered to the Nazis or that I don't know what I'm on about.

So I'm happy to help if people are interested, if they are not then OK, and if they are here to try and somehow own me on a forum then good luck with that - not playing.

You can't compare Scotland, Catalonia, and Putin's Russia tbh. You may be able to make a broad comparison with China but those  nations don't have anywhere close to the same domestic political instruments as Russia.

Like you I'm not interested in an internet sparring match either. Personally, I just think you've misread the situation overall. This isn't just about Ukraine, just like South Odessa wasn't just about Georgia and Syria wasn't about defeating Islamic State. whilst you may have a valid argument about Russians in general believing Ukraine is a part of Russia (which from what I've read is a little mixed) this is not the same as Putin's ambitions. As he's previously stated, you can never take the KGB out the man, so I think reading this as a part of 'getting back Russian land' is buying Putin's explanation that is instead masking rather malevolent interests. 

He's been on a decade old power trip to expand Russia's sphere of influence and territorial ambitions. It's got nothing to do with reuniting ethnic Russians or taking back territory that is presumed as being Russian. 

The Russian forces are showing themselves to be outdated and quite blunt. The Ukrainians seem to be limiting the Russian advance with heavy losses of both men and material for Russia. Ultimately, Russia is a country with a GDP similar to Italy... this is no longer a superpower but an aggressive regional power acting completely out of bounds.  Yes, the sheer force of numbers they can use means Ukraine may loose but if sufficient losses can be inflicted on Russia and economic sanctions hit hard enough it will stop his larger territorial ambitions in the region. If this turned into an urban insurgency then the end result would likely be a Russian withdrawal in the end. 

 I would add with almost every aggressive Russian action in the past decade there has been negotiation and compromise... it has led us here. Further 'diplomatic' attempts will see another crisis of this sort appear in the near future. It's time that he's made to pay a significant price for his actions that may make him reconsider if this or future ventures are such a good idea. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[BaaLocks]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We only had the military might to fight back and win because of the help from other countries.

Putin seems to have skipped past the negotiation stage, don't you think? I'm really not sure what you expect the Ukrainians to do when their country is being invaded, and the blame for 'meaningless deaths' is on Putin, not the people of Ukraine.

Where do you put the Ukranian males pulled from their cars while trying to cross the border at Hungary in that - physically dragged from their families and told to fight for their country? Or what about the train station full of Ukranian mailes being held at gunpoint for the same purpose? Are they just collateral damage that has to be tolerated in part of the great battle to protect the Motherland? Or shall we just tell their wives and children that it was all Putin's fault, he's the bogeyman in all this?

As for getting other countries to help, if you are suggesting that, yeah that'll fix everything.

[1of4]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

There is no legitimate reason. As there isn't when it's the blood on America and their allies hands. None at all. That's the most tragic cost of any war. 

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq. Thousands of them to Coalition forces. 

Politics failed and now the cost is war. 

America disregards life quite freely at times.  Hard to believe maybe but I think Russia has shown restraint in it's attack. 

I know you're going to show me pictures of "Russian restraint" buy I'm talking about in the context of yet another unnecessary (imo) war. 

The only defence of Putin you will see here is focused on what surrounds the war in Ukraine. There's been a couple of trolls suggesting people are apologising for Putin or justifying the war. But I'm fairly confident they don't even believe that themselves. 

 

 

The good old, they're doing it, so I can do it too, argument

As for calling  other posters trolls for suggesting people are finding reasons to justify Putins actions.

Well call me a troll.

There is no justifiable reason for the invasion of Ukraine.