The Ukraine War

[Gaspode]

14 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

The casualties of war

Now the meerkats have been cancelled

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/feb/28/comparethemarket-meerkat-ads-tv-ukraine-russian-aleksandr-orlov

Not all bad then?......

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Human Freedom Index: Russia is positioned about halfway, glass half empty, glass half full? Behind Morocco and one place ahead of Thailand, a few ahead of India yet I struggle to remember the last time I heard anyone calling the leader of those countries a dictator. Whynot? Because it doesn't fit the required narrative

Nobody is debating there is little in the way of free media in Russia, nobody is debating that dissent is met with strong resistance (Navalny, Khodorkhovsky), nobody is saying that Russian people don't undestand that you will get into trouble if you step out of line. But I can say about what I know and see of the 'state he maintains' and that is that amongst the Russian people he is largely popular and has done more to improve the quality of life of the average Russian on the street - at all levels, not just the oligarchs - than the likes of Boris Johnson would, or could, achieve in five lifetimes of trying.

In conclusion, it suits the West to paint Putin as a despot, a Soviet dinosaur, an empirical zealot. If you've got an enemy to rail against then you need your leaders to protect you (pick up a bit of Noam Chomsky if you want some more on that) so it benefits all to have that friction in place. It also falls into the part that irritates me most - so please excuse me - that we have no right to be telling Putin how to run his country in the same way that Putin has no right to invade his neighbours territories just because he thinks Khruschev was wrong to give it away. It's manifest destiny, it's the American suggestion that democracy as they state it is the only version that is acceptable. They tried that in Iraq and, well, it didn't go too well.

The fact is Putin crushes dissent, doesn't allow democratic elections, kills or imprisons opponents, controls the media and takes every opportunity to enrich himself.  I don't really know how or why there is a debate here about what kind of character he is.

I agree that the West has behaved foolishly over the years in expanding NATO and encircling Russia. I agree that it might have been in everyone's best interests had Ukraine been neutral territory You'll get no argument from me about the many misdeeds committed by the US and others in their own foreign policy. 

However despite claims by other posters that the West made this invasion of the Ukraine inevitable, that's simply the not the case. It was a choice made by Vladimir Putin, he could and should have acted differently. He, above anything or anyone else, is to blame for the war in Ukraine.

[Norman]

1 hour ago, cstand said:

All politics is divisive in the modern world with a click bait MSM trying to fill 24hr news and social media sites such as Twitter. 

The Ukraine remaining independent but neutral and having a working relationship with Russia was my preferred option before Putin invaded.

Been following this guy on you tube for a few years as he travelled through the old soviet countries making videos though now trying to leave  the Ukraine.

 

Same here. Bald's vlogs have been amazing over the years. Learnt so much from him about old Soviet nations.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Norman

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

The fact is Putin crushes dissent, doesn't allow democratic elections, kills or imprisons opponents, controls the media and takes every opportunity to enrich himself.  I don't really know how or why there is a debate here about what kind of character he is.

Because it's not fact - particularly the point around enriching himself. He doesn't serially imprison opponents btw - read up on Andrei Serkov, watch some Adam Curtis and you will see he actually supports some of them. He does control the media, I agree, but watch Fox News and American media and you will see they are not far short themselves. More importantly, everyone in Russia knows he controls the media - in a way it's actually irrelevant (again, watch Adam Curtis).

As I said in my opening post, I'm not really here to debate, more to hopefully offer some perspective beyond that portrayed in a self serving media. I have lived, worked and travelled in Russia for almost thirty years (not constantly, I grant you, but as I said I have Russian family now so regularly return). I don't ask you to believe me implicitly but i will tell you i know more on this topic than most of the media who claim to be experts. The invasion of Ukraine is a mistake, on every level, but it does not help to incorrectly claim it as the output of a despotic tyrant from a country under a yoke of supression.

Anyway, as you will...

[sage]

13 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Because it's not fact - particularly the point around enriching himself. He doesn't serially imprison opponents btw - read up on Andrei Serkov, watch some Adam Curtis and you will see he actually supports some of them. He does control the media, I agree, but watch Fox News and American media and you will see they are not far short themselves. More importantly, everyone in Russia knows he controls the media - in a way it's actually irrelevant (again, watch Adam Curtis).

As I said in my opening post, I'm not really here to debate, more to hopefully offer some perspective beyond that portrayed in a self serving media. I have lived, worked and travelled in Russia for almost thirty years (not constantly, I grant you, but as I said I have Russian family now so regularly return). I don't ask you to believe me implicitly but i will tell you i know more on this topic than most of the media who claim to be experts. The invasion of Ukraine is a mistake, on every level, but it does not help to incorrectly claim it as the output of a despotic tyrant from a country under a yoke of supression.

Anyway, as you will...

Correct. He also poisons some.

[Olton Ram]

The general consensus seems to be that Putin has an estimated net worth of c. $200 billion. Even if the exact figure can be disputed, he certainly appears to be a multi-billionaire. Not bad for a former KGB officer who doesn't enrich himself.

[jono]

22 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Because it's not fact - particularly the point around enriching himself. He doesn't serially imprison opponents btw - read up on Andrei Serkov, watch some Adam Curtis and you will see he actually supports some of them. He does control the media, I agree, but watch Fox News and American media and you will see they are not far short themselves. More importantly, everyone in Russia knows he controls the media - in a way it's actually irrelevant (again, watch Adam Curtis).

As I said in my opening post, I'm not really here to debate, more to hopefully offer some perspective beyond that portrayed in a self serving media. I have lived, worked and travelled in Russia for almost thirty years (not constantly, I grant you, but as I said I have Russian family now so regularly return). I don't ask you to believe me implicitly but i will tell you i know more on this topic than most of the media who claim to be experts. The invasion of Ukraine is a mistake, on every level, but it does not help to incorrectly claim it as the output of a despotic tyrant from a country under a yoke of supression.

Anyway, as you will...

You forget that here, and in the west in general when media supports the authority there are other media that take it to bits and ….nothing happens, they just have a slanging match … because we aren’t lead by despotic presidents for life. Even our monarchy is a servant of Parliament. 
 

Lots of history, lots of justifications and explanations but regardless of your personal experience the evidence is that none Russian Europe is a very normal bickering family. Putin is the nasty relative that absolutely no one likes and with good reasons. Violent, egotistical bully. I don’t see you offering much alternative “perspective”. I rather think you are an apologist. You call the invasion a mistake ? No .. it isn’t a “mistake” it’s violent un democratic expansionism born of aggressive nationalism. Something unseen in Europe for 80 odd years. 

[cstand]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Same here. Bald's vlogs have been amazing over the years. Learnt so much from him about old Soviet nations.

I also follow Kurt Caz his vlogs are mostly South Americas brilliant videos

Also Wow things for engineering porn
 

 

[BaaLocks]

9 minutes ago, jono said:

You forget that here, and in the west in general when media supports the authority there are other media that take it to bits and ….nothing happens, they just have a slanging match … because we aren’t lead by despotic presidents for life. Even our monarchy is a servant of Parliament. 
 

Lots of history, lots of justifications and explanations but regardless of your personal experience the evidence is that none Russian Europe is a very normal bickering family. Putin is the nasty relative that absolutely no one likes and with good reasons. Violent, egotistical bully. I don’t see you offering much alternative “perspective”. I rather think you are an apologist. You call the invasion a mistake ? No .. it isn’t a “mistake” it’s violent un democratic expansionism born of aggressive nationalism. Something unseen in Europe for 80 odd years. 

I'm not offering an alternative, if you want to see a crazy Russian take a look at the ones who are named to follow him. Be very careful what you wish for. But we don't learn, we have destabilised the ex-Soviet bloc for 30 years, and if this all now results in the demise of Putin there will be a power vacuum that will make all of this look like Nigel Clough giving Wee Billy the knee.

As for being an apologist, nope. You're right, the invasion is - to quote you - a violent un democratic expansionism born of aggressive nationalism. (actually you are more right than you probably realise, this is nationalism in Putin's eyes - not expansionism).

And on the other point raised - no evidence Putin is worth €200bn. I have no doubt he has siphoned off for himself, and i don't agree one bit with it. But it didn't seem to worry all the Chelsea fans at Wembley that their owner took €7bn out of Russia - hey he bought some footballers with it so that one's OK then.

Look, I'll leave you all to it now. I think I've explained my side as much as I can, I don't claim to be right or to be in the know (even if I am more in the know that Liz Truss). Let's hope this gets resolved quickly and without too much bloodshed - in the meantime don't believe the hype, and don't let them turn you into what they want you to be.

[Archied]

3 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Possibly. I wouldn't take the analogy too far though. At the time of the Hitler-stalin deal (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) there was Russia looking nervously at Japan as well as the Germans, so to substitute China in that way can make sense.

Or do you mean more like Russia being in Germany's position (surrounded by threats and not strong enough to overcome them all at the same time) and China being in Russia's position of needing to keep the threat on one side at least quiet enough to get on with what it's doing elsewhere?

It's definitely got an air of some uneasy "you go west, I'll go east" understanding which parallels, and I bet they don't trust each other too much.

One of Tom Clancy's books was about a fictional war between Russia and China (forget which one)

It was just a very loose comparison along the lines of my enemies enemy kind of thing with China abstaining in the United Nations regards Russian actions in ukrain and seems a bit of a 3 way superpower struggle, I’m not hugely well informed on the complications of this whole issue but finding this topic very useful in trying to get a better picture 

[jono]

10 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not offering an alternative, if you want to see a crazy Russian take a look at the ones who are named to follow him. Be very careful what you wish for. But we don't learn, we have destabilised the ex-Soviet bloc for 30 years, and if this all now results in the demise of Putin there will be a power vacuum that will make all of this look like Nigel Clough giving Wee Billy the knee.

As for being an apologist, nope. You're right, the invasion is - to quote you - a violent un democratic expansionism born of aggressive nationalism. (actually you are more right than you probably realise, this is nationalism in Putin's eyes - not expansionism).

And on the other point raised - no evidence Putin is worth €200bn. I have no doubt he has siphoned off for himself, and i don't agree one bit with it. But it didn't seem to worry all the Chelsea fans at Wembley that their owner took €7bn out of Russia - hey he bought some footballers with it so that one's OK then.

Look, I'll leave you all to it now. I think I've explained my side as much as I can, I don't claim to be right or to be in the know (even if I am more in the know that Liz Truss). Let's hope this gets resolved quickly and without too much bloodshed - in the meantime don't believe the hype, and don't let them turn you into what they want you to be.

I form my own opinions based on knowledge gained over a lifetime reading history. I listen to people, not the comments and analysis media “experts” divine from what those people say. I do realise it is “nationalism” That is blindingly obvious. (Surprising though it may seem, I can think ) We didn’t destabilise the Soviet bloc. We didn’t like it and armed ourselves to the teeth in case they came for us next, but  The Soviet bloc destroyed itself via inefficiency, flawed ideology, repression of free speech , violence towards dissenters and above all corruption. It prolonged itself by shooting students in Hungary in the 1950’s then sending  tanks into Prague in the 1960’s and building walls with machine gun armed watch towers in Berlin to keep its citizens in. Putin is the toxic sting in the tail of that dead animal.

[GboroRam]

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

I'll leave you all to it now. I think I've explained my side as much as I can

I hope you can still contribute and bring your experiences to the thread. It's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to learn from having these conversations with the broad range of dheads we all are on this forum 

?

[jono]

17 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hope you can still contribute and bring your experiences to the thread. It's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to learn from having these conversations with the broad range of dheads we all are on this forum 

?

Quite right Stiv. We need dissenting voices. We can all get in our fixed position too easily. New input is vital . My feeling on Mr Locks is somewhere along the lines of the old .. I don’t agree with what you say but I’ll defend your right to say it. 

[Stive Pesley]

Some interesting stuff here on the military strategies of the past week - a really good point in there about the technological front

Quote

In a desperate effort to keep the war hidden from the Russian public, framing this as a Donbas operation, Moscow has completely ceded the information environment to Ukraine, which has galvanized morale and support behind Kyiv. Another miscalculation

 

 

[Alph]

One thing I struggle with even though I know it's not really exactly relevant here, Is some of the actions of the west, USA leading the way in meddling and expanding and their proxy wars

Find it really hard to digest some of the hypocritical stances. 

The refusal to recognise this freedom here but recognise one there. To ignore this referendum here but then arm government rebellion there. 

You don't have to go back far to see the napalm strikes, drone strikes, atomic bombs, the poverty, the civilian death tolls, the anarchy left in the wake of the "liberations" all in the name of democracy and freedom. 

Look at some of the states in America. The racial tensions, the homophobia, the gun crimes, the wealth disparity etc etc

And this is the leader of our free world. 

I know it's not really on topic. But I've become so disgusted with the way it is and how it's packaged and sold to us that the words uttered out of western leaders I often, not always, find repulsive and hypocritical. 

It's more difficult to get this idea that we're the good guys all the time.

[Tamworthram]

40 minutes ago, Alpha said:

One thing I struggle with even though I know it's not really exactly relevant here, Is some of the actions of the west, USA leading the way in meddling and expanding and their proxy wars

Find it really hard to digest some of the hypocritical stances. 

The refusal to recognise this freedom here but recognise one there. To ignore this referendum here but then arm government rebellion there. 

You don't have to go back far to see the napalm strikes, drone strikes, atomic bombs, the poverty, the civilian death tolls, the anarchy left in the wake of the "liberations" all in the name of democracy and freedom. 

Look at some of the states in America. The racial tensions, the homophobia, the gun crimes, the wealth disparity etc etc

And this is the leader of our free world. 

I know it's not really on topic. But I've become so disgusted with the way it is and how it's packaged and sold to us that the words uttered out of western leaders I often, not always, find repulsive and hypocritical. 

It's more difficult to get this idea that we're the good guys all the time.

Anyone who thinks that (is there anyone?) is either incredibly naive or seriously susceptible to propaganda.

[Eddie]

Damn the British, the Americans, the EU and everybody else, forcing poor Vlad to bomb hospitals.

Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? But that's basically what the apologists are saying.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Eddie

[Alph]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

Damn the British, the Americans, the EU and everybody else, forcing poor Vlad to bomb hospitals.

Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? But that's basically what the apologists are saying.

Once again, no it's not. 

Yes it does sound stupid. It sounds stupid when it's drone strikes blowing up hospitals in the middle East too. But we call that known terrorists using hospital as a base. 

Nobody here is apologising for the Invasion. But you either haven't read the thread or you're trolling. I think every single poster condemns it.

They're just choosing to look at why we got anywhere near the point of even considering war. And within that it's more complex and two sided than Hitler is back. 

[BaaLocks]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

Damn the British, the Americans, the EU and everybody else, forcing poor Vlad to bomb hospitals.

Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? But that's basically what the apologists are saying.

Maybe some sat around the same table as Putin might be but, as ever, not everyone is that extreme. What I think the likes of @Alpha were trying to say (and maybe myself) is that the West has engaged on a programme of meddling, intrusion and inconsistent support and decision making in Russia and the broader region for more than 30 years and that has frustrated Putin to the point he feels (again perception is everything) he has no choice.