Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Yani P]

4 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

So you think that the two have cooked this up to get admissions to the business school?  Given that who cares about admissions is the university you should see if the uni of liverpool also have something to do with our demise. 

Yes the EFL have that power and they've always had that power. I don't think the EFL has anything against Derby county as a club at all. It's not about 'slagging mel off' it's about the fact that ultimately he's responsible for this, he's mismanaged the club and walked away and throughout this process he's failed to take responsibility. I think pretending that there's this elaborate conspiracy by the EFL, Parry, and Maguire to kill Derby county all  in the setting of a Uni of Liverpool business course is a view that is beyond the realm of sanity. 

Just one more question..

[Foreveram]

19 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Apparently he can play anywhere on the left 

[PistoldPete]

5 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

So you think that the two have cooked this up to get admissions to the business school?  Given that who cares about admissions is the university you should see if the uni of liverpool also have something to do with our demise. 

Yes the EFL have that power and they've always had that power. I don't think the EFL has anything against Derby county as a club at all. It's not about 'slagging mel off' it's about the fact that ultimately he's responsible for this, he's mismanaged the club and walked away and throughout this process he's failed to take responsibility. I think pretending that there's this elaborate conspiracy by the EFL, Parry, and Maguire to kill Derby county all  in the setting of a Uni of Liverpool business course is a view that is beyond the realm of sanity. 

I think you distort what i say just a tad. 

EFL and Maguire are not independent. That's all there is. Maguire isnt going to slag them off and hasn't ever. He slags Derby and Morris off a lot. It isn't balanced at all. On the facts he is wrong more often than he is right.

 

If you read my posts you will see that I am not all uncritical of Mel Morris. He has made many many mistakes.  So do many football Charirmen by the way.

 

 

 

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

The other way of looking at it is that he is relatively objective and professionally well placed…Do you not think that there is a strong element of you not wanting to hear the message?

Nope. Can’t agree with your first sentence even. He is not objective, he makes a living providing information as clickbait to prove his own importance! Do you really believe we’re the only club pushing boundaries?! Where is his crusade against Reading etc?

As for his professional ability’s, I remain to be convinced of his accountancy skills.

I heard the ‘message’ before that twit stuck his oar in - it was obvious Mel was pushing our spending limits in the race to the Prem. But even so, our accountancy techniques have not been proven against accounting rules, just EFLs interpretation. If the EFL had told us that sooner maybe we’d have been more cautious with our P&S spending!

Edited October 22, 2021 by RoyMac5

[Tyler Durden]

29 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

It isn't conjecture. It is a fact. The two have had shared vested interest in people signing up for their courses at the same  business school .  Maguire is not independent of EFL, he peddles their agenda all the time.

 

By no means are EFL the sole cause of our problems. And by no means has Mel Morris not made multiple errors.

But our ultimate fate our very existence as a club rests with the EFL (and to some extent the forbearance of mel Morris as a creditor). EFL  have within their power to banish us from the League.

If they succeed they will claim a weird distorred moral argument that they have to punish us (all of us every Rams fan, and sorry for questioning if you were Leeds but it wasn't clear)  for the allegedly self inflicted actions. to maintain their "integrity" of the League (no really).

And no I do no trust EFL  one bit, and unless he proves me wrong, i still trust Morris to save us now if he can.   So no I'm not keen to slag him off right now.

 

It has to be conjecture as you would be able to substantiate them as fact which you can't, all you do is further your opinion. I understand that this is a forum for discussion but for anyone to propogate their own opinions as fact is a step too far and just seems to smack of desperation to validate their own opinions.

I don't see anyone slagging Morris off as you put it, I do see people furthering their own opinions about how the club got into this mess in the first place regardless of the EFL, Maguire or Who Flung Dung.

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

I think you distort what i say just a tad. 

EFL and Maguire are not independent. That's all there is. Maguire isnt going to slag them off and hasn't ever. He slags Derby and Morris off a lot. It isn't balanced at all. On the facts he is wrong more often than he is right.

 

If you read my posts you will see that I am not all uncritical of Mel Morris. He has made many many mistakes.  So do many football Charirmen by the way.

 

 

 

I mean it could be there is no vested interest, no conspiracy, and Maguire just thinks Mel and us are in the wrong.... 

Not many football chairman leave their clubs in this state. 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Leeds Ram said:

I mean it could be there is no vested interest, no conspiracy, and Maguire just thinks Mel and us are in the wrong.... 

Not many football chairman leave their clubs in this state. 

He had no idea how it would/will end. 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Continue to fund, but surely it would be acceptable to say ‘continue to fund at the same level of financial help’? And so covid meant greater financial assistance than could have been expected or even afforded, at any point even looking back historically at our finances under Mel?

This is the only argument around it. 
We have to prove that Mel put the same (or more) money into the club to cover Covid losses as he otherwise would have done. This means funding up to a point where the club would be self-sustainable, not just during the period directly affected by Covid. If there wasn't enough funding to get us to that point, then administration was inevitable.

[Hathersage Ram]

17 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I think you distort what i say just a tad. 

EFL and Maguire are not independent. That's all there is. Maguire isnt going to slag them off and hasn't ever. He slags Derby and Morris off a lot. It isn't balanced at all. On the facts he is wrong more often than he is right.

 

If you read my posts you will see that I am not all uncritical of Mel Morris. He has made many many mistakes.  So do many football Charirmen by the way.

 

 

 

Very few Chairman/Owners have made the gravity of mistakes MM has. 

[Indy]

4 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Its a quite simplistic but compelling argument from the EFL - we only went into administration as the owner pulled the plug. 

A big difference between an owner changing his mind and stopping covering normal operating losses (as in the Wigan case), and expecting someone to suddenly fill a £20m hole in revenue caused by a worldwide pandemic. 

[Mostyn6]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Think it's best that we agree to disagree.

Ultimately I hope that at least the majority of people on here accept the outcome of the appeal to the EFL whatever it is.

I just get the feeling that this won't happen if our points deduction is upheld and will be put forward as another example of the EFL shafting us rather then looking at actually how we got us into this mess in the first place 

Anyway here's in hope that it does get reduced. 

It resonates with me cos i had similar. 
 

in 2014, I had an overdraft, three credit cards and a loan. I also was earning a handsome wage and was steadily reducing all of the above. Then, I got made redundant and it took me six months to get a job at similar salary. Whilst the debts prior to losing my job were of my own making, it was the loss of income that prevented me from making payments and caused me to default. 
 

Derby’s loss of income caused the default/admin. Now if clubs weren’t allowed to be in debt, then we deserve what we get, but there are EFL clubs carrying 9-figure debts without scrutiny. 

[PistoldPete]

17 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean it could be there is no vested interest, no conspiracy, and Maguire just thinks Mel and us are in the wrong.... 

Not many football chairman leave their clubs in this state. 

Well we went into admin after Lionel Pickering left, and then came the 3 amigos. Lionel was a decent man just a a bit stubborn and he left us in state too. I don’t think he had to deal with a pandemic either. 

of course maguire has a vested interest . He has books to sell podcasts he wants people to listen to. He wants a story. That story will be a big one if it leads to the biggest financial failure in English football history and he has a vested interest in that .

[PistoldPete]

7 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said:

Very few Chairman/Owners have made the gravity of mistakes MM has. 

I think many chairmen have made worse mistakes but have got away with it. Villa and Stoke and reading . forest too. 
 

but the consequences of several failed attempts at promotion, leaving us in a weakened financial state and then COVID hitting us just at the wrong  time have had the worst of consequences that is true.

[Indy]

2 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

The other way of looking at it is that he is relatively objective and professionally well placed to form judgements. How many fans can say the same?

I don't really understand the vitriol, given that through his Podcast he does rather more to inform you an your own club management has historically done. He's also better placed to perceive how your club are regarded than you are (understandably, it's not a criticism per se). Do you not think that there is a strong element of you not wanting to hear the message?

To say we should have been prepared for COVID because Ebola happened (ie a virus was successfully contained in central Africa a couple of decades ago) is so disingenuous though. I don’t think the guy is stupid, so can only assume this bad faith argument is, at best, an attempt to stir up controversy and web traffic at our expense. Hardly objective. 

[May Contain Nuts]

40 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean it could be there is no vested interest, no conspiracy, and Maguire just thinks Mel and us are in the wrong.... 

...and that justifies grassing us up to the powers that be, does it?

If he had nothing to gain from it he could, should and preferably would have either kept his mouth shut, or at least  limited his comments to social media posts and podcasts. Quite frankly it's none of his damn business what we do, but he's made it his business and now he spends an inordinate amount of his time publicly criticising us.

He's made his point, why not move onto other matters?

That's what the dislike of Maguire boils down to, we could have 20 page arguments about how his bias, qualifications, motives, career prospects but ultimately nobody likes a grass, nobody likes self-publicising attention seekers.

Sadly there's a handful of people who sit there backing him up because of their own dislike of Mel Morris, as if they have to take a side, and I really don't get it.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[vonwright]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Your analysis is wrong logically and in law. If the answer to 1) is No then how could the EFL claim we were a basket case going into the pandemic? We may have been weak but we would have survived financially if the pandemic hadn't happened and that is the proper legal test.

Again, I'm not sure why you think this is the proper legal test of whether this force majeure clause applies. Rather, the way the clause is drafted suggests we will need to show Covid was solely responsible for forcing us into administration. If the Wigan ruling is anything to go by, the argument "We were run perfectly happily by a rich owner who was prepared to plug £xm gaps in our income/expenditure, but couldn't or wouldn't cover gaps of £xm" isn't going to play well. These circumstances are very different, and I have no idea what the outcome will be, but the way the club was run before Covid will be a relevant consideration in deciding whether Covid alone forced us into administration. I think we need to wait for the ruling and see what it says, but the "rich benefactor" model which we've used, as have many others, always came with risks. 

[PistoldPete]

33 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It has to be conjecture as you would be able to substantiate them as fact which you can't, all you do is further your opinion. I understand that this is a forum for discussion but for anyone to propogate their own opinions as fact is a step too far and just seems to smack of desperation to validate their own opinions.

I don't see anyone slagging Morris off as you put it, I do see people furthering their own opinions about how the club got into this mess in the first place regardless of the EFL, Maguire or Who Flung Dung.

Maguire accused an auditor of not being independent because he was a rams fan. 
 

did he provide any evidence  that the auditors work was impacted in anyway by the fact if being a rams fan. No he didn’t. 
 

I have heard a lot of quotes from maguire and I have never heard him criticise Efl. Other commentators have. Nixon has. Samuel at the mail has. Parliament has.

how come maguire never does. To me he is obviously biased that is my opinion and I am not the only one who thinks that. 
 

it is a fact that maguire and parry worked together. I am not passing on anything as fact that this is only opinion.

[MuespachRam]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

But EFL's argument was not to do with existential threat of selling the stadium , but in their book the argument was we gained an unfair advantage and broke the rules. We didn't do either and actually saying we gained an advantage really throws everyone off the threat you suggest as it is the opposite . 

We will see what happens with PPS soon I guess. If it is sold for housing well you may expect more anger including from me.

 

Would be the best thing that ever happened if they sold It for housing. 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

43 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean it could be there is no vested interest, no conspiracy, and Maguire just thinks Mel and us are in the wrong.... 

Not many football chairman leave their clubs in this state. 

Not many football chairman have been treated like Mel has been done by the EFL to be fair.

Anyone who thinks everything that is happening is righteous and just and that Derby deserve everything they get absolutely baffle me.

I have had some choice words for Mel over the last few years but he is on the receiving end of an agenda by someone within the EFL, it is absolutely blatant.

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Again, I'm not sure why you think this is the proper legal test of whether this force majeure clause applies. Rather, the way the clause is drafted suggests we will need to show Covid was solely responsible for forcing us into administration. If the Wigan ruling is anything to go by, the argument "We were run perfectly happily by a rich owner who was prepared to plug £xm gaps in our income/expenditure, but couldn't or wouldn't cover gaps of £xm" isn't going to play well. These circumstances are very different, and I have no idea what the outcome will be, but the way the club was run before Covid will be a relevant consideration in deciding whether Covid alone forced us into administration. I think we need to wait for the ruling and see what it says, but the "rich benefactor" model which we've used, as have many others, always came with risks. 

First of all force majeure clause applies because COVID is such an event , without question in my view. Whether it is the sole cause is indeed the issue but it is only events post pandemic that are relevant unless it could be shown we would have gone into admin anyway. I don’t think we would.

as you say in the Wigan case the tribunal were unimpressed by the owner randomly pulling the plug. They may take a similar view in our case except I don’t think Morris pulled the plug without trying everything to avoid it. But we will see.