Building from the back

[Carl Sagan]

A quarter of the way through the season, it must be a first for the Championship for the league leaders and the team in bottom place to have the joint best defensive records, having conceded only 8 goals in 11 games (the same as Bournemouth). Given all the constraints Rooney has been operating under, it's a remarkable stat. We reach the international break with defensive players Jagielka, Stearman and Bielik injured so it's fair to say we are down to the bare bones, but we now have two weeks to lick our wounds and recharge our batteries.

The flipside of this coin is that we are also the joint lowest scorers in the division, along with Barnsley, hitting the net only 7 times in 11 matches. Our injured strike force sees Colin Kazim-Richards and Sam Baldock sidelined, so our only fit striker today was Jack Stretton, a 20 year old rookie.

The old adage is to build from the back and Rooney has done that impressively, and has given us a great platform we can build on for the rest of the season. But do we need to carry greater attacking threat if we are to survive, even if that is at the expense of our defensive stability? If the answer is yes, how do we do that most effectively?

I think the answer needs to be yes. If we don't start scoring more goals, I expect us to go down, even with "only" a 12 point deduction.

[Yani P]

Stretton was a bit unlucky today in that we just didnt have the ball and had no control of the game apart from either side of half time. We seem to say after every game that we missed decent chances - knight and Lawrence certainly did today...I still have a hope that Stretton could get a run of goals once he gets settled into the side..he was pretty isolated today so hopefully will see more of a threat from him if he can stay in the side. 

I agree though - this isnt a new issue it was the same last year although, we are certainly creating a lot more chances this season. I havent given up hope that Stretton might be the one if he goes on one of those goalscoring runs - he always looked a natural goalscorer albeit in the 23s..I might just be clutching at straws though. Hopefully new owners in January will get a couple of experienced strikers in as a boost.

[LeedsCityRam]

27 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

A quarter of the way through the season, it must be a first for the Championship for the league leaders and the team in bottom place to have the joint best defensive records, having conceded only 8 goals in 11 games (the same as Bournemouth). Given all the constraints Rooney has been operating under, it's a remarkable stat. We reach the international break with defensive players Jagielka, Stearman and Bielik injured so it's fair to say we are down to the bare bones, but we now have two weeks to lick our wounds and recharge our batteries.

The flipside of this coin is that we are also the joint lowest scorers in the division, along with Barnsley, hitting the net only 7 times in 11 matches. Our injured strike force sees Colin Kazim-Richards and Sam Baldock sidelined, so our only fit striker today was Jack Stretton, a 20 year old rookie.

The old adage is to build from the back and Rooney has done that impressively, and has given us a great platform we can build on for the rest of the season. But do we need to carry greater attacking threat if we are to survive, even if that is at the expense of our defensive stability? If the answer is yes, how do we do that most effectively?

I think the answer needs to be yes. If we don't start scoring more goals, I expect us to go down, even with "only" a 12 point deduction.

It is a remarkable defensive statistic & the approach has been entirely correct. Make sure we are difficult to beat & then build out from that. 

With regard to improving our attacking threat, its obviously a tough one given the limitations of our squad. Given we know Baldock isn't likely to score many, I feel we need to give Stretton plenty of game time to see if he can develop into a regular scorer. There's also an argument for us moving to 3-5-2 when Kazim returns with Stretton or Baldock playing off him...this would keep us defensively solid but give us more & varied outlets up top.

Listening to Rosenior in the week highlighted just how hard the coaching team are working with the players to improve them & the team dynamic. I was struck by his comment about 8 of the squad achieving sprint PBs & Im guessing the coaching will also extend to decision making & situational awareness. We've already seen great strides in how we knock the ball around & our discipline...the next stage is getting so good at that we routinely cut the opposition open. That creates more chances & you'd think, more goals.

[Rev]

2 hours ago, Yani P said:

Stretton was a bit unlucky today in that we just didnt have the ball and had no control of the game apart from either side of half time. We seem to say after every game that we missed decent chances - knight and Lawrence certainly did today...I still have a hope that Stretton could get a run of goals once he gets settled into the side..he was pretty isolated today so hopefully will see more of a threat from him if he can stay in the side. 

I agree though - this isnt a new issue it was the same last year although, we are certainly creating a lot more chances this season. I havent given up hope that Stretton might be the one if he goes on one of those goalscoring runs - he always looked a natural goalscorer albeit in the 23s..I might just be clutching at straws though. Hopefully new owners in January will get a couple of experienced strikers in as a boost.

I don't think your faith in Stretton is misplaced.

He's got all the tools, the only thing he lacks is experience. That can't be fast forwarded or bypassed, but given time and appropriate opportunity he could be a very decent option for us.

 

[Carl Sagan]

The bottom line is of course that Rooney has been dealt a rough hand and he has done well so far this campaign with what he's got. After laying the foundations, can he build on top of it?

When I think back to the McClaren seasons we played 4-3-3 which was effectively 4-1-2-3 with a single central defensive midfielder so you could look at it as 5 defensive players and 5 attacking players. The current formation of 4-2-3-1 means 6 defensive players and 4 attacking players. Our most likely scorer in any game would be Kazim-Richards but with him out injured, the most likely scorers in the squad seem to me to be Stretton and Sibley. And if given the chance, they would combine well together so be more than the sum of their individual parts. But even if playing one or both of them in the team, we still only have 4 attacking players all told. 

Is there a way of playing 5 forward-thinking players and remaining almost as solid at the back? It could be argued when Bielik is fit he gives us the capability to do that in a McClaren-style 4-3-3, but I think when Bielik is fit he will leave the club because of our financial/administration woes. However, I do think it is a role Ravel could play well. I don't think Rooney will do that.

When you look at our attacking assets (realistically Baldock, Stretton, Jozwiak, Lawrence, Ravel, Sibley) it seems to me that only Stretton and Sibley have any chance of becoming players who will always give you double figures a season. The others may chip in, but with no more than half a dozen. I think Rooney simply has to find a way of fitting Stretton and Sibley into the team if we're to score enough to stay up. 

I'm disappointed Sibley wasn't able to have a run of goals to go with his run in the team until recently. And in the last two games Rooney hasn't even used him as a sub. But he, Ravel and Shinnie are all close to suspension anyway, so hopefully he will manage another run when one of the others can't play. Football is so much about confidence. If Stretton or Sibley or hopefully both can get a break and bag a goal or two it might change not just their season but ours too. But it won't happen unless they are being played.

[sage]

it's almost like the only CF we had got injured and the cheap but willing back up we bought got injured. 

It will be interesting to see what happens when CKR, Baldock and Stretton are all fit and available. 

 

[Rampage]

On 02/10/2021 at 17:16, Carl Sagan said:

A quarter of the way through the season, it must be a first for the Championship for the league leaders and the team in bottom place to have the joint best defensive records, having conceded only 8 goals in 11 games (the same as Bournemouth). Given all the constraints Rooney has been operating under, it's a remarkable stat. We reach the international break with defensive players Jagielka, Stearman and Bielik injured so it's fair to say we are down to the bare bones, but we now have two weeks to lick our wounds and recharge our batteries.

The flipside of this coin is that we are also the joint lowest scorers in the division, along with Barnsley, hitting the net only 7 times in 11 matches. Our injured strike force sees Colin Kazim-Richards and Sam Baldock sidelined, so our only fit striker today was Jack Stretton, a 20 year old rookie.

The old adage is to build from the back and Rooney has done that impressively, and has given us a great platform we can build on for the rest of the season. But do we need to carry greater attacking threat if we are to survive, even if that is at the expense of our defensive stability? If the answer is yes, how do we do that most effectively?

I think the answer needs to be yes. If we don't start scoring more goals, I expect us to go down, even with "only" a 12 point deduction.

You do not seem as positive these days Carl. We must enjoy the wonderful team spirit that Wayne has engendered. Long time since our team worked so hard. Focus on the games and just ignore the rest of it which we cannot alter. We have the best fans in this league. The whole of the country has noticed our plight and our response to it. COYR

[Bris Vegas]

I'm not really that suprised. Great defensive record and dire attacking record isn't so much down to the players but down to the way we play. This isn't a criticism of Wayne Rooney, it's arguably the only way we can succeed with our current side.

We sit deep. Our CBs are brilliant in the air and read the game well. We rarely look like conceding from crosses or from balls over the top considering our shape.

We've also only fallen behind three times this season. Peterborough and Sheffield United in the last minute, and obviously Birmingham. We've only really 'chased the game' once this season, hence the only time we've been suckered on the counter attack and found ourselves out of shape was for Brum's second.

I fear for us if we go behind. I can't see us getting back into many games.

That's why it's imperative we don't make any silly mistakes at the back like we did for Brum's first. 

But if we can get our noses infront more often than not, we stand a real chance.

[Carl Sagan]

6 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I'm not really that suprised. Great defensive record and dire attacking record isn't so much down to the players but down to the way we play. This isn't a criticism of Wayne Rooney, it's arguably the only way we can succeed with our current side.

We sit deep. Our CBs are brilliant in the air and read the game well. We rarely look like conceding from crosses or from balls over the top considering our shape.

We've also only fallen behind three times this season. Peterborough and Sheffield United in the last minute, and obviously Birmingham. We've only really 'chased the game' once this season, hence the only time we've been suckered on the counter attack and found ourselves out of shape was for Brum's second.

I fear for us if we go behind. I can't see us getting back into many games.

That's why it's imperative we don't make any silly mistakes at the back like we did for Brum's first. 

But if we can get our noses infront more often than not, we stand a real chance.

That's a good summary. I was quite struck when viewing the Reading forum after we beat them, and someone said words to the effect "you can see why they don't concede many or score many".

My recollection is that the beginning of the end for Jim Smith's Derby came after a heavy defeat, whereupon he decided he had no place for Francesco Baiano and would replace him with Daryl Powell. Shutting up shop can seem the right thing to do, but it can also be the recipe for a slow and painful demise.

Rooney is in such a bind but I think if we're to survive he has to be a little more trusting of some players and a little less afraid, and release the shackles enough to give us more of a chance  of scoring. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

Didn’t Rooney say CKR and Bieliek back very soon? 
 

This IMO is the key to us scoring more and also keeping the defence as strong as possible. 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Rooney is in such a bind but I think if we're to survive he has to be a little more trusting of some players and a little less afraid, and release the shackles enough to give us more of a chance  of scoring. 

What? How?

Who in the team looks even vaguely like scoring? Lawrence had 3 close range shots and scored none. Knight had a couple of chances too. Stretton doesn't look ready. So who?

[Brammie Steve]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What? How?

Who in the team looks even vaguely like scoring? Lawrence had 3 close range shots and scored none. Knight had a couple of chances too. Stretton doesn't look ready. So who?

Fozzy of course!?

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said:

That's a good summary. I was quite struck when viewing the Reading forum after we beat them, and someone said words to the effect "you can see why they don't concede many or score many".

My recollection is that the beginning of the end for Jim Smith's Derby came after a heavy defeat, whereupon he decided he had no place for Francesco Baiano and would replace him with Daryl Powell. Shutting up shop can seem the right thing to do, but it can also be the recipe for a slow and painful demise.

Rooney is in such a bind but I think if we're to survive he has to be a little more trusting of some players and a little less afraid, and release the shackles enough to give us more of a chance  of scoring. 

I can't recall any team which had long-term success playing the way we do. You ideally need to play in a progressive manner if you really want to succeed. But I can fully understand why we don't. If we had quicker defenders, perhaps we would play a higher line and press more. But Rooney is playing in a way which protects our goal first and foremost.

Whether it will get us out of trouble I don't know. We've only won 2 home games from six despite our competitive nature. That isn't great and certainly won't be enough to keep us up with the points deduction.

I vaguely remember Leicester going down in the Championship despite having one of the best defensive records.

If you can't score goals, I think you're going to be in trouble. Because it only takes one poor decision from an official, one mistake at the back, one 25-yard screamer or one huge slice of misfortune and the three points can escape you.

 

 

 

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Didn’t Rooney say CKR and Bieliek back very soon? 
 

This IMO is the key to us scoring more and also keeping the defence as strong as possible. 

He also seemed to say that we are going to out a few past a team soon 

[Rampage]

29 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I can't recall any team which had long-term success playing the way we do. You ideally need to play in a progressive manner if you really want to succeed. But I can fully understand why we don't. If we had quicker defenders, perhaps we would play a higher line and press more. But Rooney is playing in a way which protects our goal first and foremost.

Whether it will get us out of trouble I don't know. We've only won 2 home games from six despite our competitive nature. That isn't great and certainly won't be enough to keep us up with the points deduction.

I vaguely remember Leicester going down in the Championship despite having one of the best defensive records.

If you can't score goals, I think you're going to be in trouble. Because it only takes one poor decision from an official, one mistake at the back, one 25-yard screamer or one huge slice of misfortune and the three points can escape you.

 

 

 

We only have to beat three teams having given them a 12 point start. Another -9 is another matter. EFL give us a stay on the -9 , we get taken over, we get some players then we get the -9 then we go down, then we come back up. Simples. Most people are happy but not our fans.

[1of4]

Like everyone I'm pleased with our defender's resolute performances this season and the low number of goals they've conceded

It's their inability to play out from the back when being closed down by the opposition forwards that concerns me.

To often we lose possession just outside the box causing us to panic and having to scramble the ball away. This is not a resent concern, it's been a problem for a few seasons and as cost us a number of goals.

This problem is not just down to the defensive players, our midfield players have to accept some of the blame for this failing.

Why hasn't the coaching staff done anything to rectify this issue? Because once this problem can be rectified, our forwards will begin to see more of the ball in the final third of the pitch and hopefully score more  much needed goals. And I won't be a nervous wreak every time we have a goal kick.

[Yani P]

This season we do look like scoring though..we create plenty in most games..just haven't got anyone that can hit a bulls arse with a banjo at the moment..we need to keep playing like we have been and hopefully the goals will come..

[ram59]

What amazes me is that despite having the best defence, 8 goals, in the championship, most of the goals we have conceded, have been given to the opposition.

The 2 at Peterborough, the 2 at Birmingham and the 1 at Sheffield and even the Stoke goal, all immediately spring to mind. Those extra 5 points would have turned an impressive start into a fantastic start.

[jono]

I can’t comment realistically about our survival chances. It would be the greatest of great escapes in football history but as someone who loves to hope and dream I just have to embrace the story.

Right them, florid Jono waffle over …. Strikers and goal scorers … We have an old musket in CKR when he returns. He’ll do some damage, packs a punch but speed of loading and finesse aren’t his strong points … just don’t get in the way when one goes off. Sam .. nice, light, well finished, some quality but he’s an air rifle. Onwards to our Jack … only been on the test range, hasn’t had his proof stamped. Was a slow as sludge and awkward for the first half hour on Saturday, looks like he lacks muscle … but when I think how Buchanan, Knight, Bird, Lowe, Bogle, Sibley grew over 10 first team games then I have hope. It’s a huge adjustment but they are young and the ability to transform in a short time is very real. Jack looks mobile and keen I hope he will cut the mustard, I think he can. 

its funny with youth players, sometimes you can see they’ve got it straight away .. sure they might need polish and guile but you can spot it … some though .. look to be missing something, at first glance. I thought Dylan Williams was an excess of willingness but a lack of grunt. He changed my mind on Saturday, I saw power and real determination in the making. 
 

 

[TheHomunculusLives]

Sorry to be blunt, but from what I've seen I don't think Stretton is good enough at this stage. Granted, it's a pretty tough gig right now with the lack of service our strikers get, but even so, I don't see any tools in his armoury that will frighten Championship defences.