Is the EFL punishment process correct?

[Raich Carter]

I totally understand what they're trying to do:

1) Have the 'fit and proper' process for any new owners to stop 'baddies' getting into the game

2) Ensure clubs don't over-spend to the detriment of the competition and the club itself

However...

When the worst happens, as has for us and other clubs, when the EFL apply the penalties, are the correct people being punished? Mel knew the risk he was taking and he lost some money but the club could actually disappear because of his actions - not something we signed up for as fans.

So whilst I appreciate the EFL have a job to do, by applying points deductions to the club, they actually compound the clubs problems by reducing our revenue and potentially sale'ability to new owners. This can't be right... can it? 

The clubs themselves (if we define that as the entity of us as fans and the collective interest that is DCFC) have done nothing wrong. The owners and money men are using the club as a vehicle to make money. If that doesn't work, they lose a bit of money but our club is damaged significantly.

There's a whole generation of kids that won't follow DCFC now because we'll be in League One so that sends us down a notch in terms of fanbase which in turn reduces our revenue which makes it less likely for us to return to the Prem. It's a very, very vicious circle caused by money men who don't truly have the balls, money, skill or luck to see it through. 

[alexxxxx]

Perhaps you're right and could be tied to a licensing regime for owners rather than FAPP test. 

I personally think the whole model needs to change. 

Each club having its league status, name and intellectual property owned by a fan Trust and then a licensed 'operator' who is granted exclusive rights to operate the club. As long as they operate the club within agreed parameters (ie they don't just pull the plug when things get tough) they can hold the operator role for as long as they like, or they can make investments and sell.

Punishments by efl for rule breaches could then be made on the operator, with ultimately loss of licence being the final punishment and therefore their investment.  The trust would then need to appoint a new operator. 

I'm sure there's loads of holes in this idea, or that fundamentally this model makes investment or ownership less attractive but I think it's a good halfway house between fan ownership and wealthy benefactors... 

[Raich Carter]

23 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

Perhaps you're right and could be tied to a licensing regime for owners rather than FAPP test. 

 

That's an excellent idea. I was conscious that I didn't have have an alternative and what you say is a much better model. I wonder if that's how they work in the EFL? I'm sure they don't operate like us.

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, Raich Carter said:

I totally understand what they're trying to do:

1) Have the 'fit and proper' process for any new owners to stop 'baddies' getting into the game

2) Ensure clubs don't over-spend to the detriment of the competition and the club itself

However...

When the worst happens, as has for us and other clubs, when the EFL apply the penalties, are the correct people being punished? Mel knew the risk he was taking and he lost some money but the club could actually disappear because of his actions - not something we signed up for as fans.

So whilst I appreciate the EFL have a job to do, by applying points deductions to the club, they actually compound the clubs problems by reducing our revenue and potentially sale'ability to new owners. This can't be right... can it? 

The clubs themselves (if we define that as the entity of us as fans and the collective interest that is DCFC) have done nothing wrong. The owners and money men are using the club as a vehicle to make money. If that doesn't work, they lose a bit of money but our club is damaged significantly.

There's a whole generation of kids that won't follow DCFC now because we'll be in League One so that sends us down a notch in terms of fanbase which in turn reduces our revenue which makes it less likely for us to return to the Prem. It's a very, very vicious circle caused by money men who don't truly have the balls, money, skill or luck to see it through. 

It is the club which is a member of the league not the owner.

[BucksRam]

I agree @Raich Carter I've said this before, way before the current Rams debacle, that the rules governing clubs completely fail to recognise that they're so much more than a Business, they are the lifeblood of a community, they are someone's reason for getting up in the morning, they are the thing someone works their butt off for, just so they can go to a match, see their mates, be part of something.  Sadly, for most of those clubs that fold, as a result of poor business management, and the ensuing EFL sanctions they're hit with, the owners often stroll away, still with millions in the bank, with a c'est la vie attitude, leaving behind them 1000s of devastated, possibly unemployed people. 

I love this club, I love football, but I also love a lot of other things, including rugby. Sadly, I'm getting more and more disillusioned with football as a whole, and turning more to rugby, which is so much more fan based in my opinion and less driven by TV rights, extortionate salaries and ridiculous, blind-sighted sanctions.

Something really does need to change but it has to be driven from someone like Government.  The PL aren't going to change anything whilst they sit in their ivory towers.  The EFL certainly aren't - a group I consider a bunch of Sepp Blatters. You only have to look at the latest FIFA penalty against Hungary for the disgusting racist abuse they dished out. Hungary were fined £158,400 and have to do 2 matches behind closed doors, literally 3 months after being fined £85,000 for a similar offence.  FIFA said - "Fifa takes a clear zero tolerance stance against such abhorrent behaviour in football," . Really? No you don't - otherwise you'd have fined them 10x that amount and kicked them out for minimum a year.     

The whole system is broken and I for one have lost faith in it.  Sorry to be so doom and gloom. 

[B4ev6is]

2 hours ago, Raich Carter said:

I totally understand what they're trying to do:

1) Have the 'fit and proper' process for any new owners to stop 'baddies' getting into the game

2) Ensure clubs don't over-spend to the detriment of the competition and the club itself

However...

When the worst happens, as has for us and other clubs, when the EFL apply the penalties, are the correct people being punished? Mel knew the risk he was taking and he lost some money but the club could actually disappear because of his actions - not something we signed up for as fans.

So whilst I appreciate the EFL have a job to do, by applying points deductions to the club, they actually compound the clubs problems by reducing our revenue and potentially sale'ability to new owners. This can't be right... can it? 

The clubs themselves (if we define that as the entity of us as fans and the collective interest that is DCFC) have done nothing wrong. The owners and money men are using the club as a vehicle to make money. If that doesn't work, they lose a bit of money but our club is damaged significantly.

There's a whole generation of kids that won't follow DCFC now because we'll be in League One so that sends us down a notch in terms of fanbase which in turn reduces our revenue which makes it less likely for us to return to the Prem. It's a very, very vicious circle caused by money men who don't truly have the balls, money, skill or luck to see it through. 

That not tactical true is it made young ones will still support the club.

[Anag Ram]

Probably been covered before but aren't football clubs independently audited each year? 

Surely any serious issues should be discovered and reported before it leads to the downfall of a football club which has existed for nearly 140 years? 

[brady1993]

Honestly it's all a bit weird, broken and in need of a massive overhaul.

The current system basically encourages people to cheat because they can't get punished if they get promoted and also if a club gets into trouble it helps instigate a death spiral because the punishments for financial trouble often further that trouble.

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, BucksRam said:

I love this club, I love football, but I also love a lot of other things, including rugby. Sadly, I'm getting more and more disillusioned with football as a whole, and turning more to rugby, which is so much more fan based in my opinion and less driven by TV rights, extortionate salaries and ridiculous, blind-sighted sanctions.

Rugby is catching up quick, don't you think.

[B4ev6is]

Only if efl suits them if you dont they go after you even if they dont have a leg.

[Elwood P Dowd]

I do think that the EFL needs to change its aproach.  if a club does get into trouble the EFL always seems to add to the clubs problems, perhaps if the EFL were not so quick to deduct points and add sanctions clubs may survive. I doubt that any club would go to the EFL for help, in the current regime, as the EFL would want to weald the big stick.  I am very worried about Derby but also about non Premier league football in general, when clubs are paying 120% of their turnover in wages it doesnt take an Acountant to tell you that it is unsustainable. The EFL need to look at FFP and make it work fairly across the leagues, the Championship is distorted by the Premier League parachute payments.

A Football club is more than just 11 players it is often the identity for a whole city and a social focus of passion for the clubs supporters. 

We dont want to loose any clubs, even Forest, I dont have a solution but I think I see problems for many EFL clubs in the near future.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Elwood P Dowd
spelling

[Raich Carter]

1 hour ago, B4ev6is said:

That not tactical true is it made young ones will still support the club.

That's the problem - young ones, being young, want to follow the big clubs and if we're in League One or Two, then the pull to Man Utd, etc can be too much so we lose our fanbase. It's a fact bud. We might love DCFC but kids want to see Ronaldo or at least a chance of seeing him and if we're a little club in League Two then there's no chance of that - hence we lose the support and become a small club like Notts County...

[Raich Carter]

1 hour ago, Anag Ram said:

Probably been covered before but aren't football clubs independently audited each year? 

Surely any serious issues should be discovered and reported before it leads to the downfall of a football club which has existed for nearly 140 years? 

I think this is where the EFL are rubbish. They seem to wade in like a bull in a china shop when it's all too late and the people who caused the problem have moved on (as Mel has) and we, the fans are left with the legacy of the debts, the points penalties and the turmoil for the next 10 years. It's just very, very wrong. 

I'm not anti-EFL; I think their motives are in the right direction but they're a bit dim and naive because this system just doesn't penalise the right people. 

[Woodley Ram]

Quote

For the following campaign their accounts revealed total accumulated losses of £138m, while their most recent pre-tax loss was £93m over a three-year period.

This was taken from the Reading fans website 'hobnob anyone' . They talk about getting a 9 point deduction the same as the alleged one we will be getting for being £4m over. Birmingham received 7 points or being £13m over. Likewise Derby received a suspended 3 points for not paying wages for a couple of weeks yet Wednesday received 6 points suspended for a much greater offence    

I think the EFL need to be consistant in what they are giving out.

just a point here about our administration. It would seem that our losses are less than Readings and our income I would expect to be higher. Where we are dosnt make sense, if it does why are Reading not in the same place as us?

[Elwood P Dowd]

54 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

I think this is where the EFL are rubbish. They seem to wade in like a bull in a china shop when it's all too late and the people who caused the problem have moved on (as Mel has) and we, the fans are left with the legacy of the debts, the points penalties and the turmoil for the next 10 years. It's just very, very wrong. 

I'm not anti-EFL; I think their motives are in the right direction but they're a bit dim and naive because this system just doesn't penalise the right people. 

If the EFL were Doctors they would kill their patients to cure their symptoms ?‍♂️

[Gritstone Ram]

It seems to me to be after the horse has bolted. Surely the punishment should punish the crime and the advantage gained that year. If clubs break the rules to gain promotion then they shouldn’t go up or likewise get to the playoffs etc. None of this agreeing a fine or point deduction 3 seasons afterwards. 
Any club going up or in the playoffs should also need to prove they have done it fairly and within financial rules and if they can’t then they forfeit that position.

[Eddie]

At the end of the day, the penalties are there as a deterrent to others. The fact that Mel then chose to ignore the warnings when others were clobbered is why we are where we are now.

[jono]

5 hours ago, alexxxxx said:

Perhaps you're right and could be tied to a licensing regime for owners rather than FAPP test. 

I personally think the whole model needs to change. 

Each club having its league status, name and intellectual property owned by a fan Trust and then a licensed 'operator' who is granted exclusive rights to operate the club. As long as they operate the club within agreed parameters (ie they don't just pull the plug when things get tough) they can hold the operator role for as long as they like, or they can make investments and sell.

Punishments by efl for rule breaches could then be made on the operator, with ultimately loss of licence being the final punishment and therefore their investment.  The trust would then need to appoint a new operator. 

I'm sure there's loads of holes in this idea, or that fundamentally this model makes investment or ownership less attractive but I think it's a good halfway house between fan ownership and wealthy benefactors... 

it’s interesting and raises some great possibles - has to be worth exploring

So a club breaches ffp type rules and the owners license holding company (as distinct from the club ) faces a fiscal penalty. It’s sounds right but what about our opponents who claim “unfair” ? How do we address that ? … Do we have a combo of qualifications for the prem … so you reach the prem on points or the play offs on points but sadly your licence holder was in breach so can’t go there ?  Do you have to play entry games to qualify for the league cup ? as a second tier penalty for lesser crimes.
If you do get to the prem and you are later found out then there is a retrospective fine, the proceeds of which go to the closest innocent party who was “cheated” 

I certainly believe that the size of points deductions seem largely out of kilter with the result of the “offence” The EFL seem worse than any card happy ref. I get the feeling we have been given 5 years hard Labour for not wearing a seatbelt. A player dives .. he gets a card .. the game isn’t abandoned in a sulk 

one thing for sure .. this is a money game so sanctions could be more money based which hits the owners before it hits the fans. 

[Gritstone Ram]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

At the end of the day, the penalties are there as a deterrent to others. The fact that Mel then chose to ignore the warnings when others were clobbered is why we are where we are now.

What about the teams that have gained promotion? Where is the deterrent for them?

[Ilsonram12]

Ironic that Tom glick advocated ffp from the start, look how that went....