Mel Morris interview on Radio Derby 1pm

[Ramtastic ones]

8 minutes ago, bimmerman said:

He's in my opinion just tried to save face and twaddle a reason out as to why he's not the bad guy

At this moment in time,I believe that liquidation is round the corner. It's awful to think it that the club I've loved for 30 years could be wiped away but unfortunately that's the reality. Who'd buy a debt laden club with less guaranteed income?

I started out in kiddies corner back in the early seventies. I saw us beat Real Madrid at the BBG and I was there for many other great games. Many will have been rams fans for much longer and seen greater days. I have a programme from the '46 cup final given to me by grandad. Derby is in my DNA. Let's hope that we survive this and let's use our energy in a positive way.

MM, love him or hate him, has gone. We, as true fans move on and do what we can - support the players and staff in a positive way. Energy focused on the old guard is wasted. Pride park is our home and pride is what we have.

I will still go to the matches. My 13 year old son will come with me - he is still firmly a Ram even though he lives in an area (Grantham) dominated by forest fans. He dreams of those great days that I witnessed. If he can stay loyal so can we. COYR.

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I'm trying to stitch the bits together as the new news for me was the "about 4m breach of P&S". 

So we knew from the EFL that revised accounts and financial information was submitted August 18th. 

The hearsay evidence suggested that the EFL were pushing for a 9 point penalty. 

So presumably this was the 4 points for the overspend, which is as per the rules plus the EFL seeking further deductions of 5 which I assume were the subject of the "negotiations" between dcfc and efl. This, despite the fact that the event giving rise was the insistence of following a different accounting approach, which was already punished by a fine. 

Not particularly surprised that we did not reach agreement if the EFL were more than doubling the prescribed penalty. 

Quick finger in the air adjustments based on £4m 2018 loss, also gives a £6m loss in 2020... an extra 6 points deducted. 

Talk was 9 points (plus 3 suspended).... 5 (plus 3) if you tske the 2018 points away. This would be equivalent to £10-12.5m overspend in 1 other period, or combined overspend in 2 other periods by £4-8m. It doesn't sound too far fetched to believe we exceeded the limts under straight line in 3 different periods (2018, 2019 and 2020).

[RadioactiveWaste]

6 minutes ago, Topram said:

Is there a time frame on when we could go into liquidation? How long do we have for a potential owner to come in

Based on zero knowledge  - i would imagine absolute worst case would be January, simply because that's when they could sell the players. If they're doing that in January it means the situation is utterly irredimable and no credible options for a resuce are on the horizon. BUT i think that is absolutly worst case.

 

[RamontheMoor]

Only just listened as been at work today and towards the end when talking about the stadium, ownership and ?any potential 'sale' to any investor I had to 'laugh' at Ed's question "and who's valuation will you have on the stadium, will it be yours or other owners?"

 

 

[Crewton]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Quick finger in the air adjustments based on £4m 2018 loss, also gives a £6m loss in 2020... an extra 6 points deducted. 

Talk was 9 points (plus 3 suspended).... 5 (plus 3) if you tske the 2018 points away. This would be equivalent to £10-12.5m overspend in 1 other period, or combined overspend in 2 other periods by £4-8m. It doesn't sound too far fetched to believe we exceeded the limts under straight line in 3 different periods (2018, 2019 and 2020).

Isn't 2019/20 now combined with 20/21 because of Covid? 

[Ghost of Clough]

Just now, Crewton said:

Isn't 2019/20 now combined with 20/21 because of Covid? 

Those 2 years are averaged into a 4 year period, rather than the normal 3 year period.

The 2020 period is still 3 seasons (17/18, 18/19, 19/20).

[Ramtastic ones]

21 minutes ago, Spanish said:

You can’t increase the value

So if a company buys an asset and it increases in value, they can't reflect that in their accounts? If that is correct every set of accounts that includes share values is totally ducked.

 

[vonwright]

34 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

By and large, I agree with you. The only questions I’d have (I’m sure someone out there has the answer) are: is the debt owed to HMRC actually PAYE and When did we start to run it up? I thought it was linked to Covid in the sense that the clubs income fell off a cliff but it still had PAYE to pay.

That's fair, and I'd like to know more about the tax bill, too. From memory our entire annual running costs were about £35m to £40m in the last two years for which we've submitted accounts, so an unpaid £26m PAYE bill feels high (and, I note in passing, higher than the £20m I think Mel claimed we'd lost in revenue due to Covid).

Edited September 19, 2021 by vonwright

[atherstoneram]

12 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Seems to me like Mel put us on the road to administration the moment he only wanted new owners to pay the debts off, which is pretty much what fans were asking him to do in terms of selling for a £1, he was getting £0 from the deal itself.

New owners are always going to want us to go into admin and have less debts to pay if that is all they were going to pay for anyway, so it makes sense what Mel says where he expects previous interested parties to come back in.

Yes we are likely to go down now but most thought that anyway this year & majority of last year, so the new owners would probably think the same so they will know we are down but with less overall debt to pay.

Going into administration doesn't really reduce the debt by much.

[DCFC1388]

2 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Going into administration doesn't really reduce the debt by much.

Still reduces it though, even if it was 5m you would rather have that 5m to use on rebuilding

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Those 2 years are averaged into a 4 year period, rather than the normal 3 year period.

The 2020 period is still 3 seasons (17/18, 18/19, 19/20).

As 2019/20 was also affected by Covid, how would it be fair to treat it as a normal year within that particular 3 year period? 

I'd assumed that the 4-year period meant there wouldn't be any assessment for 2018-20.

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

Going into administration doesn't really reduce the debt by much.

Saves Mel paying any more money out?

[atherstoneram]

5 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Still reduces it though, even if it was 5m you would rather have that 5m to use on rebuilding

When/if new owners come in rebuilding the team might be some way down the list,they may not want to pay all the debt off in a lump sum. 

[Norman]

I think some people literally think someone will buy us in the next few weeks and pay all the debts off, whilst financing a rebuild for League 1 in the summer

Not going to happen. 

[atherstoneram]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Saves Mel paying any more money out?

But the debts will still be accruing whilst the club is under the stewardship  of the administrators, that's why they will be looking at what/who they can dispense with to keep the debts under control.

[Spanish]

26 minutes ago, Ramtastic ones said:

So if a company buys an asset and it increases in value, they can't reflect that in their accounts? If that is correct every set of accounts that includes share values is totally ducked.

 

In terms of player value you can only depreciate 

[BramcoteRam84]

I listened to the interview. I think Ed did an ok job, easy for us to stand back and say he didn’t ask that or he didn’t ask this. Not all the questions we wanted answering were answered but they were never going to be. 

Mel made some extremely valid points. The football financial model is broken. It isn’t a level playing field. Only 2 non-parachute payment clubs have secured promotion without breaking P&S. Parachute payment clubs are insulated to Covid, clubs recently promoted have a cost base that can cope and will make equal/more revenue from additional TV money that balances out loss of gate revenues, the non parachute funded clubs with bigger attendances who have been showing ambition and pushing the boundaries of P&S just to try and compete with the parachute funded clubs were always going to be hit harder by Covid. Without Covid we wouldn’t be going into administration. All those points cannot be argued. We were starting to cut our cloth accordingly with Cocu but then Covid pulled the rug out from under us. It can’t be denied it’s a fact.

His comments about the inconsistencies and punitive nature of the EFL were also interesting. The defence of our amortisation policy was fierce and in my opinion completely valid. Its a disgrace we’re in the dock over this - anyone who says otherwise is swallowing the guff that the EFL are clubs pushing them on this are leaking out to the national press to build this ridiculous idea we are cheats.  The EFL are not fit for purpose and an independent regulator is required.

Mel even admitted he gambled and failed but that’s the only way to compete season after season against parachute funded clubs, that is no different to other owners of clubs who avoided P&S issues through being fortunate enough to be promoted.

But the interview didn’t cover/push the fact he gambled but wouldn’t stand behind his debts and plunged us into administration up to the eyeballs in debt (unless we’re taking from today he no longer has the means), glossed over his mismanagement in particular wages, joiners gate etc.
 

He also seems to think administration will be the miracle cure that gets us a new buyer to take us forward, with £60m debt majority of which won’t be wiped through the process and will need servicing at some point. Until we get a buyer, who will be funding the £1-£1.5m Mel has been funding up to now, how will we pay players? Will it just be more points deductions for not paying players or could it be worse, at what point will the club be forced to liquidate and how quickly could that arise - could it be before Jan as we can’t sell any players until then, so will we need to sell moor farm to get us through (given Mel still has PP for the moment although he has said he will offer that up to the new buyer as part of this deal). None of these questions have been answered and frankly I’m not bothered about all the other points he made, it’s already done, cannot change it, I want to know how this club can survive until January now he has taken this decision to put us in administration and threaten the club’s existence.

Im pleased he did the interview, I think he tried his best I think he cares about the club but he will always be remembered as the owner who nearly killed the club, let’s hope he’s not remembered and the owner who killed it.

[Spanish]

41 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Seems to me like Mel put us on the road to administration the moment he only wanted new owners to pay the debts off, which is pretty much what fans were asking him to do in terms of selling for a £1, he was getting £0 from the deal itself.

New owners are always going to want us to go into admin and have less debts to pay if that is all they were going to pay for anyway, so it makes sense what Mel says where he expects previous interested parties to come back in.

Yes we are likely to go down now but most thought that anyway this year & majority of last year, so the new owners would probably think the same so they will know we are down but with less overall debt to pay.

No new owner would welcome -12 plus an embargo

[Red Ram]

15 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Still reduces it though, even if it was 5m you would rather have that 5m to use on rebuilding

It's a valid point but going down to League One reduces our revenue from £30 Million to £15 Million according to this post https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38287-a-supporters-trust/?do=findComment&comment=2203023

That's £15 million lost revenue for every season we're down there. If it takes 3 seasons to get back up, like it did Forest, that's £45 million to offset against that £5 million saving. 

 

[Spanish]

3 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

I listened to the interview. I think Ed did an ok job, easy for us to stand back and say he didn’t ask that or he didn’t ask this. Not all the questions we wanted answering were answered but they were never going to be. 

Mel made some extremely valid points. The football financial model is broken. It isn’t a level playing field. Only 2 non-parachute payment clubs have secured promotion without breaking P&S. Parachute payment clubs are insulated to Covid, clubs recently promoted have a cost base that can cope and will make equal/more revenue from additional TV money that balances out loss of gate revenues, the non parachute funded clubs with bigger attendances who have been showing ambition and pushing the boundaries of P&S just to try and compete with the parachute funded clubs were always going to be hit harder by Covid. Without Covid we wouldn’t be going into administration. All those points cannot be argued. We were starting to cut our cloth accordingly with Cocu but then Covid pulled the rug out from under us. It can’t be denied it’s a fact.

His comments about the inconsistencies and punitive nature of the EFL were also interesting. The defence of our amortisation policy was fierce and in my opinion completely valid. Its a disgrace we’re in the dock over this - anyone who says otherwise is swallowing the guff that the EFL are clubs pushing them on this are leaking out to the national press to build this ridiculous idea we are cheats.  The EFL are not fit for purpose and an independent regulator is required.

Mel even admitted he gambled and failed but that’s the only way to compete season after season against parachute funded clubs, that is no different to other owners of clubs who avoided P&S issues through being fortunate enough to be promoted.

But the interview didn’t cover/push the fact he gambled but wouldn’t stand behind his debts and plunged us into administration up to the eyeballs in debt (unless we’re taking from today he no longer has the means), glossed over his mismanagement in particular wages, joiners gate etc.
 

He also seems to think administration will be the miracle cure that gets us a new buyer to take us forward, with £60m debt majority of which won’t be wiped through the process and will need servicing at some point. Until we get a buyer, who will be funding the £1-£1.5m Mel has been funding up to now, how will we pay players? Will it just be more points deductions for not paying players or could it be worse, at what point will the club be forced to liquidate and how quickly could that arise - could it be before Jan as we can’t sell any players until then, so will we need to sell moor farm to get us through (given Mel still has PP for the moment although he has said he will offer that up to the new buyer as part of this deal). None of these questions have been answered and frankly I’m not bothered about all the other points he made, it’s already done, cannot change it, I want to know how this club can survive until January now he has taken this decision to put us in administration and threaten the club’s existence.

Im pleased he did the interview, I think he tried his best I think he cares about the club but he will always be remembered as the owner who nearly killed the club, let’s hope he’s not remembered and the owner who killed it.

Imo our amortisation policy was due solely to kicking the can down the road in the hope we could get promoted and avoid penalties