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Here's a (tactical) idea for you Wayne...


IslandExile
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Play the full backs in defence.

If you want to play them further forward, as wing backs if you will, then play three central defenders.

This tactic of the two central midfielders covering for the full backs doesn't work. They're coming from a central area, so cannot cut out the run down the wing and the cross into the area. Jagielka and Davies are way too exposed.

I used to laugh that you never saw Roberto Carlos of Brazil ever appearing in his own half. We're not Brazil and Nathan Byrne, much as I like him, is no Roberto.

I'd like to see Byrne's heat map, showing his average position. I did see, time and time again, Birmingham attacks down their left and wondering where the flip is our Nathan? Only for the camera to pan out and, oh there he is, in their half, while they're attacking our goal.

I'm not blaming Byrne. That's the well documented tactic.

It just doesn't work.

4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 5-3-2, 3-4-3

Take your pick of formation.

But please, no more 2-2-5-1.

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11 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Play the full backs in defence.

If you want to play them further forward, as wing backs if you will, then play three central defenders.

This tactic of the two central midfielders covering for the full backs doesn't work. They're coming from a central area, so cannot cut out the run down the wing and the cross into the area. Jagielka and Davies are way too exposed.

I used to laugh that you never saw Roberto Carlos of Brazil ever appearing in his own half. We're not Brazil and Nathan Byrne, much as I like him, is no Roberto.

I'd like to see Byrne's heat map, showing his average position. I did see, time and time again, Birmingham attacks down their left and wondering where the flip is our Nathan? Only for the camera to pan out and, oh there he is, in their half, while they're attacking our goal.

I'm not blaming Byrne. That's the well documented tactic.

It just doesn't work.

4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 5-3-2, 3-4-3

Take your pick of formation.

But please, no more 2-2-5-1.

What doesn't work is no threat up front. #simples

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44 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What doesn't work is no threat up front. #simples

Agreed. But given the players we have....

For all his critics on here, I think we missed Jozwiak.

Morrison and Lawrence just shoot from too far out instead of playing intricate triangles to get into better scoring positions.

Lawrence has a better shot than Morrison but, even so, both should try and work us into better positions.

I think Sibley and Jozwiak can do that but without Morrison and Lawrence playing their part in a move, it will always break down.

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1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

Agreed. But given the players we have....

For all his critics on here, I think we missed Jozwiak.

Morrison and Lawrence just shoot from too far out instead of playing intricate triangles to get into better scoring positions.

Lawrence has a better shot than Morrison but, even so, both should try and work us into better positions.

I think Sibley and Jozwiak can do that but without Morrison and Lawrence playing their part in a move, it will always break down.

No mention of Baldock and Stretton? We really are bare bones up front. Have been for some time.

Lawrence isn't consistent and maybe Morrison isn't a goal threat. Joz was definitely missed.

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7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

They scored from a couple of mistakes, a poor back pass and an unlucky deflection into a players path. They didn't even make their luck.

Also true but the two old men at the back were really under the cosh because we were so stretched in the full back areas.

Play the full backs in defence and maybe the midfield could then create more chances.

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5 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Advanced fullbacks isnt an issue, but they shouldnt both be so advanced at the same time.

One should go forward and the other stay back to leave a back 3 with 1 of the cdm filling in the space to make it a back 4 still

Had we done this tonight Byrne would have been in a better defensive position for both of their goals

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1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

I'd like to see Byrne's heat map, showing his average position. I did see, time and time again, Birmingham attacks down their left and wondering where the flip is our Nathan? Only for the camera to pan out and, oh there he is, in their half, while they're attacking our goal.

As requested….

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1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

Also true but the two old men at the back were really under the cosh because we were so stretched in the full back areas.

Play the full backs in defence and maybe the midfield could then create more chances.

I thought they had a very interesting tactic, at times they pushed both up strikers in a diagonal line to our CB with the ball.

One striker blocked the central passing option to Morrison and the other blocked the channel option to bird. Their wide player then sat on our FB. This left us with a pass to the other CB, back to Roos or punt it.

We are too predictable and don’t mix our tactics up when things aren’t working. The only thing we change is dropping Morrison deeper to get on the ball (but they stick Chong on him) this dragged us even further back and broke up the link between the midfield and attack.

The sad thing is we can play some nice stuff and we are a more technical team than Brum…………sadly we are no where near as effective.

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7 hours ago, Ramarena said:

The sad thing is we can play some nice stuff and we are a more technical team than Brum…………sadly we are no where near as effective.

I think the last two matches have really shown our problems. We are basically just trying a new version of what we tried at the start of last season. At times it looks good but you never feel there is someone who will get the goals and ultimately we undo our own work. The last two matches could have been lifted straight from this time last season and our strongest 11 now is better. 

Leaving the full back areas exposed with two veteran cbs is asking for trouble.

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I’ve watched Chelsea play with a similar approach to playing out from the back since Tuchel arrived - it’s scary when they do it and their players are many, many levels better than ours….

Wazza is being a dick if he thinks we have anywhere near the quality to play the way he wants to - a huge dose of pragmatism needed and a change to play to our strengths (limited though they may be) rather than some theoretical approach that we’re simply not up to….

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5 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

I’ve watched Chelsea play with a similar approach to playing out from the back since Tuchel arrived - it’s scary when they do it and their players are many, many levels better than ours….

Wazza is being a dick if he thinks we have anywhere near the quality to play the way he wants to - a huge dose of pragmatism needed and a change to play to our strengths (limited though they may be) rather than some theoretical approach that we’re simply not up to….

Just kick the ball up to Baldock then?

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Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Just kick the ball up to Baldock then?

Where did I say that? I intimated that the play it out from the back, tippy tappy approach is beyond our players and puts them under too much pressure. A change of formation might put round pegs in round holes and let us play through the midfield. Can I politely suggest you watch a bit more football where you may discover there are many ways for a team to set up rather than just the two you seem to comprehend….

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9 hours ago, DCFC1388 said:

Advanced fullbacks isnt an issue, but they shouldnt both be so advanced at the same time.

One should go forward and the other stay back to leave a back 3 with 1 of the cdm filling in the space to make it a back 4 still

But we don't plug the gap in the back with a cdm (central defensive midfielder I presume), we plug the gap with one of our attacking midfielders. So Morrison drops back to collect the ball from a centre back, both reducing our attacking threat, and leaving him to either punt up field to one of our strikers (who were completely dominated by their defenders), or a pass to Bird or Shinnie, who are then more advanced than Morrison.

I just don't get it.

And as for pressing the opposition, how come every team seems to be able to do it except us?

Completely dillusioned with the performance of the team at the moment. Still going backwards in my opinion.

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14 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Where did I say that? I intimated that the play it out from the back, tippy tappy approach is beyond our players and puts them under too much pressure. A change of formation might put round pegs in round holes and let us play through the midfield. Can I politely suggest you watch a bit more football where you may discover there are many ways for a team to set up rather than just the two you seem to comprehend….

Didn't say you said it, it was a question.

How many round pegs were out of place last night? We had as many shots on target as they did!

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Tactically, Bowyer got it right last night and Rooney didn't in my opinion. With them pressing us so high I think we had to be braver and play more longer balls down the channels or over the top to make them have second thoughts about what they were doing.

To do this, we needed to play with at least two up top (when we had the ball) and, for all the long throw-ins, corners etc keep at least two players in attacking positions (I'd rather have three) so we had an 'out ball'. In some games this season we have done this but I didn't notice it happening last night.

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Birmingham changed how they played to close us down knowing we really didn’t have an out ball, The Gumps did something similar and more will follow.  We have similar issues to when CoCu was here. We want to play out from the back, but don’t have  a back up. The back up would be speed or strength, a combination of both would be best. So we could send the ball over the top or to a big forward to hold it up.  I think that’s why Emboseli was in the team and of course CKR. 
 

we are nearly there to have a survivable team

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