Time to walk away Wayne

[Jimbo Ram]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

2 wins in 23 games is it? Not sure anyone could do a lot worse....this season is very difficult but he should have done a lot better last season. Cocu got us on the brink of the play offs and he too had a lot of problems, taking over so late in the season etc etc.....

[BondJovi]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

The next three fixtures are tough. Would be perfectly possible to be on 9 games 6 points. 

The best 11 available to Rooney is better than what we had at this point last season. None of the signings we made, maybe except Marshall, had a pre season with us. Lawrence, Waghorn weren't fit to play until game 5 onwards.

Cocu also had to deal with the fact that his job was under immense pressure fairly early on, whether deliberate or not, Rooney and the stories surrounding him were undermining Cocu. 

As for the youngsters last season, Bird found it tough the whole time. Sibley was injured after game 3 and never got another proper go. Buchanan and Knight were the best two players under Cocu. Their form dropped as the season went on. Knight was overplayed.

Rooney is having to deal with a lot. But right now, he has one of the safest jobs in football. The only way he goes is if he walks. The only pressure on him, is from himself.

I see a lot of similarities to last season's start. We are capable of playing good football. But we are also capable of pointing a loaded gun at our feet all too frequently. We lack a goalscorer that would make all the difference.

The main problem last season was not the manager. Just like it isn't now. For 3 seasons we haven't been in a situation which would allow a manager to flourish.

 

[Bris Vegas]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

Phillip Cocu was in a far worse situation as he was obliged to play Wayne Rooney. We were practically playing with 10 men every game as Rooney was so unfit we either had to play him upfront to get him out the way in midfield or play three at the back to compensate for the gaping holes he would leave out of possession due to being as slow as a snail.

 

[Crewton]

4 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

2 wins in 23 games is it? Not sure anyone could do a lot worse....this season is very difficult but he should have done a lot better last season. Cocu got us on the brink of the play offs and he too had a lot of problems, taking over so late in the season etc etc.....

Well, I gave you the names of 3 managers who have arguably done allot worse considering their clubs aren't under the most punitive transfer embargo ever imposed by the EFL. If you know any managers who have done better with the same kind of embargo in place, let's have their names.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, BondJovi said:

The next three fixtures are tough. Would be perfectly possible to be on 9 games 6 points. 

The best 11 available to Rooney is better than what we had at this point last season. None of the signings we made, maybe except Marshall, had a pre season with us. Lawrence, Waghorn weren't fit to play until game 5 onwards.

Cocu also had to deal with the fact that his job was under immense pressure fairly early on, whether deliberate or not, Rooney and the stories surrounding him were undermining Cocu. 

As for the youngsters last season, Bird found it tough the whole time. Sibley was injured after game 3 and never got another proper go. Buchanan and Knight were the best two players under Cocu. Their form dropped as the season went on. Knight was overplayed.

Rooney is having to deal with a lot. But right now, he has one of the safest jobs in football. The only way he goes is if he walks. The only pressure on him, is from himself.

I see a lot of similarities to last season's start. We are capable of playing good football. But we are also capable of pointing a loaded gun at our feet all too frequently. We lack a goalscorer that would make all the difference.

The main problem last season was not the manager. Just like it isn't now. For 3 seasons we haven't been in a situation which would allow a manager to flourish.

 

Cocu had Matt Clarke, Wisdom, Te Wierek (his signing), Evans and Holmes at his disposal, a far stronger and more varied range of defence midfield options . If he truly did HAVE to play Rooney due to contractual commitments he'd have my sympathy (because no mananger should be obliged to play someone if they're not performing, but the stuff about Rooney undermining him is unproven internet speculation AFAIAA, unless anyone has direct evidence from witnesses. It's rumoured that the players found training too relaxed and unexciting under Cocu, but I've no reliable evidence of that either.

Having a secure job (insofar as we believe that Mel can't afford to sack him) doesn't mean it's unstressful, particularly not being able to sign players he'd like in order to improve us and having to answer the same questions about finance and take-overs every other day. 

I'm not arguing from the standpoint that Rooney is doing a great job, but to claim that somehow he's got it easier than Cocu is a bit of a reach, and until he has the opportunity to operate freely in the transfer market, I'm not sure how any comparison with other managers could be fair. 

[Leeds Ram]

34 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Well, I gave you the names of 3 managers who have arguably done allot worse considering their clubs aren't under the most punitive transfer embargo ever imposed by the EFL. If you know any managers who have done better with the same kind of embargo in place, let's have their names.

Just wondering at what point do the stats have to be so bad you'd say he has to go? 2 wins in 25? 2 wins in 30? 2 wins in 40? winning and losing are easy habits to get into, following on from the back 1/3rd of last season (pre embargo) this club has gotten into a horrible habit of losing a lot of games and barely ever winning. It's got to the point that the win-games ratio is so bad that just by chance almost anyone could have picked up more points than he has. 

[Jimbo Ram]

22 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Just wondering at what point do the stats have to be so bad you'd say he has to go? 2 wins in 25? 2 wins in 30? 2 wins in 40? winning and losing are easy habits to get into, following on from the back 1/3rd of last season (pre embargo) this club has gotten into a horrible habit of losing a lot of games and barely ever winning. It's got to the point that the win-games ratio is so bad that just by chance almost anyone could have picked up more points than he has. 

What he said......

[Tyler Durden]

7 hours ago, Crewton said:

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

Problem is when you try to use statistics to back up your argument you need to justify the information or its just meaningless as in this case.

You say statistically Rooney is doing better than Cocu, how much better? 1%, 100%? Is using an artificially low result to gauge success valid? And so on. 

[RoyMac5]

20 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Problem is when you try to use statistics to back up your argument you need to justify the information or its just meaningless as in this case.

You say statistically Rooney is doing better than Cocu, how much better? 1%, 100%? Is using an artificially low result to gauge success valid? And so on. 

We're not bottom of the league like we were.

We're playing better football. Cocuball was as tedious as Rowettball, which was at least partially successful. ?

 

[Crewton]

22 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Problem is when you try to use statistics to back up your argument you need to justify the information or its just meaningless as in this case.

You say statistically Rooney is doing better than Cocu, how much better? 1%, 100%? Is using an artificially low result to gauge success valid? And so on. 

After 6 games, Cocu had 3 points - Rooney has 6. I make that 100% better. At this stage last season, I wasn't calling for Cocu to be sacked either. If those stats aren't valid, what criteria are you judging him on in comparison to Cocu?

As for the question of "when he has to go", I addressed the question of when it's fair to judge him previously, so I refer those posing the question back to my earlier post.

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

After 6 games, Cocu had 3 points - Rooney has 6. I make that 100% better. At this stage last season, I wasn't calling for Cocu to be sacked either. If those stats aren't valid, what criteria are you judging him on in comparison to Cocu?

As for the question of "when he has to go", I addressed the question of when it's fair to judge him previously, so I refer those posing the question back to my earlier post.

Valid/invalid - you are using an extremely low comparator in Cocus start to the season to judge whether Rooney is doing a good job or not.

Of course he is against this metric as the bar is so artificially low as Cocu had an absolutely dismal start. 

[Jimbo Ram]

33 minutes ago, Crewton said:

After 6 games, Cocu had 3 points - Rooney has 6. I make that 100% better. At this stage last season, I wasn't calling for Cocu to be sacked either. If those stats aren't valid, what criteria are you judging him on in comparison to Cocu?

As for the question of "when he has to go", I addressed the question of when it's fair to judge him previously, so I refer those posing the question back to my earlier post.

Who has got the better overall win % or points per game ratio ? Just asking for a friend ??

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

Rooney isn't carrying his builders arse around the pitch for the first 7 or 8 games which probably helps.

Sibley, Knight and Bird played far better under Cocu in my opinion, which I stand by. Sibley now looks like a player desperate to do something and Bird is anonymous most of the time . As for Knight, he was knackered for the last 15 games of the season but kept being rolled out, then his own manager bust his ankle, say no more.   Rooney seems to be copying the template of a manager and his team that had a supposed 4 million payoff. Why get rid if no-ones earmarked to change things. If Bielik hadn't come into the side for 8 games or so we're on a streak of about 3 or 4 wins in a year.  

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

Cocu had Matt Clarke, Wisdom, Te Wierek (his signing), Evans and Holmes at his disposal, a far stronger and more varied range of defence midfield options . If he truly did HAVE to play Rooney due to contractual commitments he'd have my sympathy (because no mananger should be obliged to play someone if they're not performing, but the stuff about Rooney undermining him is unproven internet speculation AFAIAA, unless anyone has direct evidence from witnesses. It's rumoured that the players found training too relaxed and unexciting under Cocu, but I've no reliable evidence of that either.

Having a secure job (insofar as we believe that Mel can't afford to sack him) doesn't mean it's unstressful, particularly not being able to sign players he'd like in order to improve us and having to answer the same questions about finance and take-overs every other day. 

I'm not arguing from the standpoint that Rooney is doing a great job, but to claim that somehow he's got it easier than Cocu is a bit of a reach, and until he has the opportunity to operate freely in the transfer market, I'm not sure how any comparison with other managers could be fair. 

Of course he was undermined. From the get go he had a player on his hands he simply had to play and that player was touted as his managerial successor from the moment he walked through the door.

Wayne Rooney didn’t come to Derby to be a player here. Let’s not be naive. He talked about going into coaching and becoming a managers years prior and Mel jumped at the chance.

If we signed Ronaldinho with the intention of him becoming Rooney’s successor, and Rooney was forced to play him, do you think he would be happy?

After lockdown 2020, Rooney was only good for freekicks and publicity. How can a manager expect to achieve in such circumstances?

 

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

We're not bottom of the league like we were.

We're playing better football. Cocuball was as tedious as Rowettball, which was at least partially successful. ?

 

Our best performance under Cocu came when Rooney wasn’t even playing. The 3-0 win over Blackburn.

And at the beginning of last season, the draws against Cardiff and Forest were encouraging. We should have won both. Rooney wasn’t in the XI.

Rooney comes back into the side and we’re overrun again. Not a coincidence.

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

Valid/invalid - you are using an extremely low comparator in Cocus start to the season to judge whether Rooney is doing a good job or not.

Of course he is against this metric as the bar is so artificially low as Cocu had an absolutely dismal start. 

I said Rooney had a better record than Cocu at this stage of the season, you asked me how much better, I told you how much better. That was the only comparison I was making. I didn't say he was or wasn't doing a good job - you've put that spin on it.

I could have pointed out that Rooney also has the same record as Cocu had at this stage of the season in 2019/20 (apart from the fact that we haven't yet lost 3-0 away to Forest), when Cocu inherited 80% of the squad that reached the play-off final a few months earlier and when we weren't under embargo at all. Did you want Cocu sacked at that stage? Did you want him sacked at this stage last season? How much time do you generally give new managers before your knee-jerks?

 

 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Our best performance under Cocu came when Rooney wasn’t even playing. The 3-0 win over Blackburn.

And at the beginning of last season, the draws against Cardiff and Forest were encouraging. We should have won both. Rooney wasn’t in the XI.

Rooney comes back into the side and we’re overrun again. Not a coincidence.

Yeah if only Rooney had Chris Martin up front then we could compare. ? 

If Cocu hadn't the guts or brains to drop Rooney who do we blame then, not that I believe he had to play him, that was Cocu's choice - he made lots of 'odd' player choices, he loved switching it about. But let's not remember that!

[Crewton]

13 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Rooney isn't carrying his builders arse around the pitch for the first 7 or 8 games which probably helps.

Sibley, Knight and Bird played far better under Cocu in my opinion, which I stand by. Sibley now looks like a player desperate to do something and Bird is anonymous most of the time . As for Knight, he was knackered for the last 15 games of the season but kept being rolled out, then his own manager bust his ankle, say no more.   Rooney seems to be copying the template of a manager and his team that had a supposed 4 million payoff. Why get rid if no-ones earmarked to change things. If Bielik hadn't come into the side for 8 games or so we're on a streak of about 3 or 4 wins in a year.  

Sibley and Bird were both poor from the start of last season. If you're going to rewrite history, at least make sure the people who witnessed it are dead first.

[Crewton]

7 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Our best performance under Cocu came when Rooney wasn’t even playing. The 3-0 win over Blackburn.

And at the beginning of last season, the draws against Cardiff and Forest were encouraging. We should have won both. Rooney wasn’t in the XI.

Rooney comes back into the side and we’re overrun again. Not a coincidence.

I could have sworn we won the first 3 games after Blackburn?

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Sibley and Bird were both poor from the start of last season. If you're going to rewrite history, at least make sure the people who witnessed it are dead first.

Sibley hardly got a kick last season, he didn't get a chance to be poor.  Bird isn't my favourite player but he's a lot worse now.