Time to walk away Wayne

[kevinhectoring]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

What a shame Fozzy wasn't playing as he might have played the long balls to capitalise on the change.

Without CKR long balls are not the answer. To beat the press the man in possession needs more options. So movement off the ball needs to be better in midfield. Even then there’ll be times when the press forces  a ball back to Roos who will need to hoof because we’re overloaded in our third. 

[Chris_Martin]

6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I think you might have a different understanding of the word 'tactical' to everyone else?

Being a goal down at half time wasn't part of the initial plan but you can make tactical switches whenever you like - Any injury necessitates a change but a yellow card doesn't - So he wasn't forced into it - He obviously decided it was 'tactically' better to swap a CM on a yellow for a striker - But he could easily have left Shinnie on for the rest of the game so he wasn't forced into anything

Anyone watching the game could see Lawrence was one more foul away from going. He had lost his head, not sure how he even got away with kicking out at their player. It's a basic football decision to sub him off before he gets a red. On his day Lawrence is arguably our best attacking player, and captain too, do you really think Wayne would want to sub him off? 

All i'm saying is people can't credit Wayne with a good 'tactical' decision for something that he was forced into doing.

The Shinnie sub is a separate tactical switch, but you could argue we weren't any better after that one. So does that make it a good decision?

[Nuwtfly]

44 games, 11 wins, 12 draws, 21 defeats (25% ratio)

Club is an absolute mess but let's not pretend Rooney is blameless in this situation, as some would consistently try to make you believe, like The Times were yesterday. 

[RoyMac5]

24 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

44 games, 11 wins, 12 draws, 21 defeats (25% ratio)

Club is an absolute mess but let's not pretend Rooney is blameless in this situation, as some would consistently try to make you believe, like The Times were yesterday. 

What do the Times say about F*rest and Chris Hughton, is he blameless too? ?

Edited September 13, 2021 by RoyMac5

[TuffLuff]

I’ve tried to put this into words a couple of times over the weekend but haven’t quite got it right but I’ll try it again.

If I wanted to criticise Rooney at this moment, and I think a game like Friday nights kinda exposed it more than the previous run of games did, is something that you can lay at a lot of managers who were once top players. But I think he’s set up the side like it’s a team of Wayne Rooney’s and how he’d want to play in that position and I don’t think it’s suits every player and you might need to be a smarter in how you set up. Ofcourse you need that tenacity, work ethic etc, but I think it’s little things like Morrison coming deep that feels a bit unnecessary how much he does it. Or that players get dragged to the ball and try and win it leaving opposition players open or whatever Sibley did for the goal. You need a balance of a bit of everything that we don’t have at the minute. 

BUT the other side to that is we can only play like this because of the quality of player at his disposal, so I’m not sure you can really criticise him because no one could do any better? It’s a short term fix that has looked ok for the first few games but will have to wait and see if it works as the season progresses

[cheron85]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

Anyone watching the game could see Lawrence was one more foul away from going. He had lost his head, not sure how he even got away with kicking out at their player. It's a basic football decision to sub him off before he gets a red. On his day Lawrence is arguably our best attacking player, and captain too, do you really think Wayne would want to sub him off? 

All i'm saying is people can't credit Wayne with a good 'tactical' decision for something that he was forced into doing.

The Shinnie sub is a separate tactical switch, but you could argue we weren't any better after that one. So does that make it a good decision?

I didn't claim either were good decisions - I was just saying that he wasn't 'forced' into the changes and that both could be classed as tactical changes (which you claimed they weren't)

Tactical decisions aren't automatically good - They're just tactical - It may have been wiser for him to leave Lawrence on and risk the red in order to maintain our best goal threat - That would have been a different, but no less tactical, decision 

[Jimbo Ram]

36 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What do the Times say about F*rest and Chris Hughton, is he blameless too? ?

Not talking about them Macca, we are talking about the record of your celebrity crush ?

[angieram]

2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Without CKR long balls are not the answer. To beat the press the man in possession needs more options. So movement off the ball needs to be better in midfield. Even then there’ll be times when the press forces  a ball back to Roos who will need to hoof because we’re overloaded in our third. 

There's more than one sort of long ball! Stretton very good at running onto balls over the top played into the channels, similar to the one Fozzy played into Lawrence. I 'd argue Baldock might be similar - not seen enough of him to work out what he's good at yet?

I am not a big fan of the ball into CKR, tbh, by the time he's held up his man and laid it off the defence is all round our players. He hasn't got the deft flicks in his armoury that Martin had so it all seems more laboured.

[Nuwtfly]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

What do the Times say about F*rest and Chris Hughton, is he blameless too? ?

No idea. Not sure why you’re asking, either! I don’t waste my time reading columns about Nottingham Forest. Though I would guess they would rate them about us highly as us!

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

No idea. Not sure why you’re asking, either! I don’t waste my time reading columns about Nottingham Forest. Though I would guess they would rate them about us highly as us!

Just trying to judge the ability of the Times journo to rate managers! ?

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, cheron85 said:

I didn't claim either were good decisions - I was just saying that he wasn't 'forced' into the changes and that both could be classed as tactical changes (which you claimed they weren't)

 

i didn't. 

The Shinnie sub was obviously a tactical change. The Lawrence one was forced on him.

[Rab a dab doo]

17 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

Lawrence only got taken off because he was about to get a red.?

How often has that been said or should have been done in the past ?

Answers on a very long sheet of paper 

 

[Jimbo Ram]

3 hours ago, Nuwtfly said:

44 games, 11 wins, 12 draws, 21 defeats (25% ratio)

Club is an absolute mess but let's not pretend Rooney is blameless in this situation, as some would consistently try to make you believe, like The Times were yesterday. 

Right up there (or down there) with Tango man ?

[StarterForTen]

What Rooney is currently being asked to do is the equivalent of Mercedes F1 asking Toto Wolff to build a new car out of the British Leyland parts bin... then complaining because it doesn't look very pretty.

Right now, we are the Allegro estate of the Championship - so little point complaining about the russet brown paintwork and beige velour interior.

 

[Leeds Ram]

The problem with Rooney last season was that we didn't have a style of play. Logically, this made absolutely 0 sense because if you're mimicking your oppositions style the likelihood is they'll be better than you at it. It was indefensible and led to a shameful run that lacked both performances and points. I felt last season he should have been removed with immediate effect post Sheffield Wednesday. 

This season Wayne has finally decided to develop a style that is still in progress. My current view is that it's not fantastic either defensively or going forward. Too often we look edgy at the back and conceding chances because of individual errors fostered by the style or because of space left due to the desire to have full backs far up the pitch. Going forward in the games I've watched (Huddersfield, Middlesborough, Stoke, Peterborough, and Birmingham) we've looked poor lacking the ability to unlock defences and create actual opportunities. 

However, he does have mitigating circumstances this year and at this point Mel is Rooney's best defence. I'd give him until november/december and if we're in the relegation places at that point it'll be necessary to have a conversation with him that ends with him leaving the club. Our current run over the past 22 games is so poor that even by chance almost anyone could have done better and at some point it's got to reach the level of just being unacceptable. He doesn't deserve a full season but a run of a few months to see if he can turn it around. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

7 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

The problem with Rooney last season was that we didn't have a style of play. Logically, this made absolutely 0 sense because if you're mimicking your oppositions style the likelihood is they'll be better than you at it. It was indefensible and led to a shameful run that lacked both performances and points. I felt last season he should have been removed with immediate effect post Sheffield Wednesday. 

This season Wayne has finally decided to develop a style that is still in progress. My current view is that it's not fantastic either defensively or going forward. Too often we look edgy at the back and conceding chances because of individual errors fostered by the style or because of space left due to the desire to have full backs far up the pitch. Going forward in the games I've watched (Huddersfield, Middlesborough, Stoke, Peterborough, and Birmingham) we've looked poor lacking the ability to unlock defences and create actual opportunities. 

However, he does have mitigating circumstances this year and at this point Mel is Rooney's best defence. I'd give him until november/december and if we're in the relegation places at that point it'll be necessary to have a conversation with him that ends with him leaving the club. Our current run over the past 22 games is so poor that even by chance almost anyone could have done better and at some point it's got to reach the level of just being unacceptable. He doesn't deserve a full season but a run of a few months to see if he can turn it around. 

Isn't it exactly the same style Cocu utilised though.  He was certainly struggling when he went, but by all accounts the club are paying of 4 million quid to an ex manager and have replaced him with someone copying his template and not as well looking at the form of some of the younger players.  

[kevinhectoring]

5 hours ago, angieram said:

There's more than one sort of long ball! Stretton very good at running onto balls over the top played into the channels, similar to the one Fozzy played into Lawrence. I 'd argue Baldock might be similar - not seen enough of him to work out what he's good at yet?

I am not a big fan of the ball into CKR, tbh, by the time he's held up his man and laid it off the defence is all round our players. He hasn't got the deft flicks in his armoury that Martin had so it all seems more laboured.

I knew you'd mention Fozzie's silky pass to Lawrence ! Was on the break and no resemblance to the long ball we were discussing,  from a keeper or deep CB who is pressed.  The balls we want to see Stretton,  Baldock and Ebosele etc running onto come from midfield. Byrd delivers them well, so does Watson and of course Morrison.  Spot on about CKR and don't think Baldock has anywhere near the same physicality

[Ramarena]

3 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Isn't it exactly the same style Cocu utilised though.  He was certainly struggling when he went, but by all accounts the club are paying of 4 million quid to an ex manager and have replaced him with someone copying his template and not as well looking at the form of some of the younger players.  

To be fair I think Rooney’s style has a bit more urgency to it, but yes there are a lot of similarities.

[Crewton]

13 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Isn't it exactly the same style Cocu utilised though.  He was certainly struggling when he went, but by all accounts the club are paying of 4 million quid to an ex manager and have replaced him with someone copying his template and not as well looking at the form of some of the younger players.  

And yet Rooney is statistically doing better than Cocu was at the start of last season, despite having to deal with even more political/financial crap than Cocu ever had to and operating under even tighter restrictions. And which young players were actually playing well when Cocu left? 

I swear that the idea that another manager would be doing noticeably better is becoming a meme based on very little credible analysis. Rooney currently has a better ppg record than Hughton and Pearson, and Paul Cook is struggling at Ipswich. It's just baseless imo. 

[Kingpin]

46 minutes ago, Crewton said:

ppg record than Hughton and Pearson

Careful setting those sights so high. ?‍?