Van der MoodHoover Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 58 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: He subbed off Shinnie and Lawrence. How is that not reacting at all given our limited squad? I said tactical shifts, not taking players off. We are seeing game after game, very simple adjustments made by opposition managers while we endlessly plug away with the same approach. Its nothing to do with limited squad and it could be as simple as switching wide players over to try something different, rather than just keep going. Deej, May Contain Nuts, kevinhectoring and 3 others 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 1 hour ago, leroyoftherovers said: Fair enough mate they sure seemed to know how to get the three points better than we did but could not help watching and thinking I wouldn't want to see that week in week out. Just working well with what he's got I suppose. Yea, prefer to watch Wazza’s free flowing attacking football ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Lawrence only got taken off because he was about to get a red.? So he didn't leave him on. Capiche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob The Badger Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I said tactical shifts, not taking players off. We are seeing game after game, very simple adjustments made by opposition managers while we endlessly plug away with the same approach. Its nothing to do with limited squad and it could be as simple as switching wide players over to try something different, rather than just keep going. If players are risking getting sent off like Shinnie and Lawrence were then it's smart to take them off so you don't go down to 10-man. It's also tactical. It begs the question of whether it was smart to have given Lawrence the arm band at all, but that's another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said: If players are risking getting sent off like Shinnie and Lawrence were then it's smart to take them off so you don't go down to 10-man. It's also tactical. It begs the question of whether it was smart to have given Lawrence the arm band at all, but that's another matter. It CAN be tactical if you simultaneously change what you are doing, rather than simply bring another player on and ask him to try and do exactly the same thing. Just taking someone off to prevent a further card is not evidence of astute tactical analysis for me. kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong, Deej, Ramarena and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 This debate about results over style is a matter of personal preference. Whilst I was pleased we reached the playoffs under Rowett, I hated the football we played so much that I had no faith in it and couldn't even be bothered to go to the playoff matches. When it didn't work, it stunk. The home defeat to Sunderland was the only time I've ever booed a Derby team off. If I was the owner on that night, I'd have sacked Rowett on the spot, I was so angry. I was over the moon when he left. I'm not therefore sure I could support Bowyer as manager, and that's without considering what a horrible little dickwad he is. Van der MoodHoover, angieram, dabber and 3 others 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroyoftherovers Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: It CAN be tactical if you simultaneously change what you are doing, rather than simply bring another player on and ask him to try and do exactly the same thing. Just taking someone off to prevent a further card is not evidence of astute tactical analysis for me. I don't think Shinnie was taken off just for fear of red ,first 20 we beat their press, Bowyer makes an adjustment by pressing higher, Rooney takes Shinnie off to accommodate another striker to exploit the space in the channels if we move it quickly. I'm not saying Rooney is a tactical genius but to imply he knows nothing (not saying you are) can't be right can it? Van der MoodHoover, Premier ram and The Scarlet Pimpernel 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Martin Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: So he didn't leave him on. Capiche. well he had to take him off, you can't seriously credit that as 'tactical'.? I know you love Wayne, but come on, you can't start giving him credit for things like that? CBRammette and Deej 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 7 hours ago, Chris_Martin said: well he had to take him off, you can't seriously credit that as 'tactical'.? I know you love Wayne, but come on, you can't start giving him credit for things like that? It may not be something which is changing the system but taking off a player who is on a yellow card is tactical - It frees up the player coming on to be a bit more aggressive and ensures that the player coming off doesn't pick up a second yellow A tactical retreat if you like? angieram and Ram-Alf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 There's been plenty of games where Shinnie has been on a yellow and stayed on the pitch because he was needed. But Friday the switch was tactical, Rooney needed to put two up front, said as much after the game. What a shame Fozzy wasn't playing as he might have played the long balls to capitalise on the change. RoyMac5, Derby blood, leroyoftherovers and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 10 hours ago, leroyoftherovers said: I don't think Shinnie was taken off just for fear of red ,first 20 we beat their press, Bowyer makes an adjustment by pressing higher, Rooney takes Shinnie off to accommodate another striker to exploit the space in the channels if we move it quickly. I'm not saying Rooney is a tactical genius but to imply he knows nothing (not saying you are) can't be right can it? Now thats a decent challenge. I saw it slightly differently, in that Shinnie was playing poorly so was taken off, but Morrison was dropped back deep to restore the "double pivot" in midfield with bird and the 2 full backs were left pushed up, so the tactics were basically the same. Now that maybe not what was intended by Rooney and basically falls in the players not doing what was asked category - which is not on him. Either way we didn't get a positive outcome so it can't really be described as successful - so improvement somewhere is needed. Either in the analysis by the coaching team or in getting the players to do something closer to what is being asked. Good points tho - I don't think Rooney knows absolutely nothing, but he seems slow to identify and react at all, and then maybe is misdiagnosing the issues. leroyoftherovers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 As someone who was scathing about Rooney for most of last season, I'd have to confess to being impressed with him so far this season. My two biggest gripes between January & May were the style of play (or reactionary style) & the fact young players were seemingly ignored/misused/going backwards in their development. On the playing side, Rooney has set his stall out as wanting to play patient, attractive football - I am fully onboard with this & fully accept that implementing a successful version of this will take time. People comparing with Bowyer or Warnock aren't really comparing apples with apples - its easy to make a side into a horrible, long ball, physically dominant side - which is why teams in relegation trouble will look to likes of McCarthy, Pulis & Allardyce knowing their impact can often be immediate. I watched the Birmingham game on Sat (at a gig Fri night) & thought that first 30 mins was actually really good. No, we didn't create enough chances (as much down to reluctance to shoot) & yes, Birmingham shut down our outlets second half but they were helped by individual errors (a recurring theme with us at the minute) & a compliant referee who allowed Ryan Woods & Sunjic to basically foul with impunity. That said, we have to be stronger & braver on the ball - someone Rooney has himself said. From a youth development point of view, I've really enjoyed Max Bird's improvement in form & pleased also that Sibley is getting a regular run out. Would accept that wide right is not Louie's best position but you can't always choose where you play - Rooney will know this only too well when at Man Utd he was often moved around the front positions to accommodate Nani/Ronaldo etc. Elsewhere, its clear that likes of Ebosele, Dylan Williams & Stretton are starting to become part of the first team picture & doing well. Was also really impressed by the Salford & Sheffield Utd cup displays. I just wish we could have the room to see Cashin & Liam Thompson also as think both would contribute too. I agree with Rooney we should have more points on the table but this is going to be a slow burner of a season with harsh lessons learnt at points. My hunch is that we will develop as a team with our consistent style & with Bielik back plus the young lads getting better, we will finish the second half of the season strongly - much like 19/20. Finally on Rooney himself - think he has conducted himself with dignity in interviews, has been key to us bringing in what quality we could bring in & has been very patient given the off-field nonsense. Reality is he's staying anyway but from what I've seen in the past 2 months, I'm comfortable with that until this EFL/takeover saga gets sorted. angieram, brady1993, Eatonram and 7 others 3 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroyoftherovers Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Now thats a decent challenge. I saw it slightly differently, in that Shinnie was playing poorly so was taken off, but Morrison was dropped back deep to restore the "double pivot" in midfield with bird and the 2 full backs were left pushed up, so the tactics were basically the same. Now that maybe not what was intended by Rooney and basically falls in the players not doing what was asked category - which is not on him. Either way we didn't get a positive outcome so it can't really be described as successful - so improvement somewhere is needed. Either in the analysis by the coaching team or in getting the players to do something closer to what is being asked. Good points tho - I don't think Rooney knows absolutely nothing, but he seems slow to identify and react at all, and then maybe is misdiagnosing the issues. Aye you could be right mate,to my eye I just thought Max was given the job of making the incisive forward pass from deep,when it wasn't coming off Morrison was then told to drop and do it or at least help him out either way your right we didn't get the right result. Van der MoodHoover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, leroyoftherovers said: Aye you could be right mate,to my eye I just thought Max was given the job of making the incisive forward pass from deep,when it wasn't coming off Morrison was then told to drop and do it or at least help him out either way your right we didn't get the right result. And that's possible as well - we saw it a bit different but either could be right, or indeed neither of us! ? lIt's a real game of cat and mouse I reckon between coaches. leroyoftherovers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: As someone who was scathing about Rooney for most of last season, I'd have to confess to being impressed with him so far this season. My two biggest gripes between January & May were the style of play (or reactionary style) & the fact young players were seemingly ignored/misused/going backwards in their development. On the playing side, Rooney has set his stall out as wanting to play patient, attractive football - I am fully onboard with this & fully accept that implementing a successful version of this will take time. People comparing with Bowyer or Warnock aren't really comparing apples with apples - its easy to make a side into a horrible, long ball, physically dominant side - which is why teams in relegation trouble will look to likes of McCarthy, Pulis & Allardyce knowing their impact can often be immediate. I watched the Birmingham game on Sat (at a gig Fri night) & thought that first 30 mins was actually really good. No, we didn't create enough chances (as much down to reluctance to shoot) & yes, Birmingham shut down our outlets second half but they were helped by individual errors (a recurring theme with us at the minute) & a compliant referee who allowed Ryan Woods & Sunjic to basically foul with impunity. That said, we have to be stronger & braver on the ball - someone Rooney has himself said. From a youth development point of view, I've really enjoyed Max Bird's improvement in form & pleased also that Sibley is getting a regular run out. Would accept that wide right is not Louie's best position but you can't always choose where you play - Rooney will know this only too well when at Man Utd he was often moved around the front positions to accommodate Nani/Ronaldo etc. Elsewhere, its clear that likes of Ebosele, Dylan Williams & Stretton are starting to become part of the first team picture & doing well. Was also really impressed by the Salford & Sheffield Utd cup displays. I just wish we could have the room to see Cashin & Liam Thompson also as think both would contribute too. I agree with Rooney we should have more points on the table but this is going to be a slow burner of a season with harsh lessons learnt at points. My hunch is that we will develop as a team with our consistent style & with Bielik back plus the young lads getting better, we will finish the second half of the season strongly - much like 19/20. Finally on Rooney himself - think he has conducted himself with dignity in interviews, has been key to us bringing in what quality we could bring in & has been very patient given the off-field nonsense. Reality is he's staying anyway but from what I've seen in the past 2 months, I'm comfortable with that until this EFL/takeover saga gets sorted. More or else echo my thoughts. With the style he's trying to implement there are going to be hiccups especially until a couple players get back properly from injury. Until we get those players back and perhaps replace Davies at the back (longer term) then we are occassionally going to come unstuck against a very well drilled physical team looking to press. This is made doubly so whilst the recent approach to refereeing is settling down. Right now I can see the attempt to play the right way and I can see it developing over time even if there are a couple ups and downs. LeedsCityRam and RoyMac5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroyoftherovers Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: And that's possible as well - we saw it a bit different but either could be right, or indeed neither of us! ? lIt's a real game of cat and mouse I reckon between coaches. Yep sometimes think coaches over complicate things to much, Rooney the rookie will make mistakes for sure but he's trying to implement a style and plan, will it be enough who knows, but that's where we are with a limited squad to change things tactically. Van der MoodHoover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sport Billy Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 It's great trying to play out from the back but we do not have players capable of doing that other that 39 year old Jags , problem is we don't have the option of going direct either due to having no proper forwards / target men , we do have lots of runners though so maybe we'd be better playing into the channels at least then if we make a mistake it's further up the field ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Martin Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: It may not be something which is changing the system but taking off a player who is on a yellow card is tactical - It frees up the player coming on to be a bit more aggressive and ensures that the player coming off doesn't pick up a second yellow A tactical retreat if you like? Yes i understand that. The point i was trying to make is that it was something Wayne was forced to do, not part of a tactical plan like someone was suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroyoftherovers Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Yes i understand that. The point i was trying to make is that it was something Wayne was forced to do, not part of a tactical plan like someone was suggesting. Only Rooney knows why he did it but we did have Knight on the bench if he wanted to keep things the same/similar, he brought on a striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 13, 2021 Share Posted September 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Yes i understand that. The point i was trying to make is that it was something Wayne was forced to do, not part of a tactical plan like someone was suggesting. I think you might have a different understanding of the word 'tactical' to everyone else? Being a goal down at half time wasn't part of the initial plan but you can make tactical switches whenever you like - Any injury necessitates a change but a yellow card doesn't - So he wasn't forced into it - He obviously decided it was 'tactically' better to swap a CM on a yellow for a striker - But he could easily have left Shinnie on for the rest of the game so he wasn't forced into anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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