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1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Should we talk about the ecological impact of the way crypto mining works? The huge carbon footprint - bitcoin mining consumes more energy than a medium sized European country. And it's getting higher all the time

Only the human race could be stupid enough, in a era of dwindling resources, to design a new currency system that eats through the remaining resources at an exponential rate

 

My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources 

to add … allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources 

but your point is totally valid 

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41 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It's a ponzi scheme - mugs give them their money and they use that to buy crypto. The scheme only works while crypto is rising at silly rates and can generate the promised interest. So it relies on more and more people "investing" with them 

Don't go near it. "No brainer" is about right

Not regulated, and a total lack of transparency about who they are

 

 

Incorrect 

people pay fees and commission to borrow money to leverage trades 

in order to do this they use decentralised platforms that allow a form of peer to peer lending 

the fees distributed between the platform and the customers that stake the money 

there is risk involved as this is all done on smart contracts 

the platforms … or more reputable ones are insured for millions … they are not regulated and IMO I consider it money I might probably won’t  see if it went bad .. so limit my exposure 

Risk to reward etc 

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8 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Really ?

Give u an example 

my house gone up 25-30k in 2 years just had it revalued 

that means that means the hand in your pocket has to find another 25-30k to buy the same average 3 bed semi as I bought 2 years ago … that’s a 10% increase .. in two years 

what’s caused that ? 
demand ? 
inflation ?

taking that second point what causes inflation? 
 

And in turn what does that say about fixed assets of value ? 

your house ? Gold? Bitcoin ? 
 

im not for one second saying this is the way people should put their life savings into I’m certainly not 

but for me I can see a future where Bitcoin is used as a genuine asset of wealth 

more and more hedgfunds and institutions are taking notice 

Jp Morgan and Morgan Stanley seem to think so 

but whatever anyone does now is possibly the end of the bull run and if it isn’t we could be close so the last thing I’d do now is buy unless u were planning to hold for the Forseable which I plan to do 

as others have said I’m not throwing stupid money into it just money that I may have chucked into a crap saver or something .. £50 here and there 

Yes really,  QE isn't necessarily going to cause hyperinflation in the way you're suggesting because it's not as simple as just continually devaluing currency until it goes into a death spiral. That's why you can support QE but see MMT as complete and utter nonsense because fundamentally they operate differently. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what QE entails and how it's supposed to ensure a robust response to capital crises that emerge such as 08 financial crash. 

You can totally think bitcoin has a future (i think the sheer energy requirements are what's going to kill it in the long run) but to believe in it because you think QE is going to cause mass hyperinflation so best to buy gold, land or bitcoin is a pretty mistaken analysis. 

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5 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

Yes really,  QE isn't necessarily going to cause hyperinflation in the way you're suggesting because it's not as simple as just continually devaluing currency until it goes into a death spiral. That's why you can support QE but see MMT as complete and utter nonsense because fundamentally they operate differently. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what QE entails and how it's supposed to ensure a robust response to capital crises that emerge such as 08 financial crash. 

You can totally think bitcoin has a future (i think the sheer energy requirements are what's going to kill it in the long run) but to believe in it because you think QE is going to cause mass hyperinflation so best to buy gold, land or bitcoin is a pretty mistaken analysis. 

I believe mainly that is an asset of value now and more so in the future … a more and more likely a digital future 

the quantive easing is merely a point in time that we’re at that IMO will give some further value to hard assets of value but won’t sculpt their future and is merely in isolation … but it is relevant .. totally relevant. 

Bitcoin vs gold could be argued that gold is still being mined of which there is an unknown reserve still to be mined.

The last Bitcoin is due to to be mined in 2045 .. that’s it .. end of.

And within each halving cycle the amount that can mine be mined per day is halved and so creating a natural supply to demand imbalance… hence the cycles of rising prices 

do I think it’ll replace gold .. duck no

bit do I think it has a place in our futures… yes 

it is what it is … I totally agree re the climate side of things 

but then we the human race have done many a thing to the detriment of the environment knowing full well the consequences and we continue to do so to this day

jeez if it takes our government or any other as long as we have down to stop relying on plastic bags then bitcoin will be long mined out before anything is done to tackle its environmental impact 

 

Edited by NottsRam77
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1 hour ago, NottsRam77 said:

I don’t use plastic bags and my energy company regularly inform me 100% of my electricity comes from renewable sources … ie they get it for free .. at no cost to the environment 

which kinda takes the piss when they keep putting it up every year lol 

All of our energy comes from clockwork pigs.

I'm sorry, that should read "Winding up gammons".

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15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources 

Unsurprisingly, this doesn't appear to be quite as honest as it might be. Not like these big companies to come up with ways to legally lie their way to bigger profits! Incidentally, I also signed up to a 100% renewable power provider - it was more expensive but I thought I was doing a good thing. Then I got an email a year later saying that they had ceased trading and I was being auto-switched to EDF

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-7507443/How-check-100-renewable-electricity-really-green.html

 

15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources

I think the word allegedly is definitely doing the heavy lifting there 🙂  Again difficult to prove otherwise though, but interesting that all the major power companies are now mining bitcoin with their excess energy. I don't doubt that there is acknowledgement of crypto needing to be more efficient. Is it Ethereum that is trying to change the way it mines to use less power?

But anyway - the point is that as BTC gets nearer the 21m limit it takes more and more power to mine the coins and we end up with yet another system that favours the "already rich" who can afford the largest computing power, and craps on the little people who kinda mighta needed that electricity to heat their homes and cook their tea

15 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

the platforms … or more reputable ones are insured for millions … they are not regulated and IMO I consider it money I might probably won’t  see if it went bad .. so limit my exposure 

Yeah that's the only sane way to approach these things - in that way it's exactly the same as gambling.

Interesting that they aren't regulated but are insured instead. In the world of crypto where prices can have insane swings, they are insured against you losing your wallet, but not if your wallet suddenly becomes worth buttons because the bubble bursts!

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About 7 or 8 years ago on a night out after a few beers, an acquaintance spent hours bending my ear about bitcoin. 

He told me that every single spare penny that he ever gets, he invests. That he was using it as a savings account and had a few grand already invested. That he was looking decades ahead with no intention of responding to fluctuations, if the market dipped he would just buy more because it would inevitably recover. 

Was like an attempt at religious conversion. 

I'm not financially aware or confident enough to have listened to him and done as he said. He isn't driving a Bentley yet but maybe he is sitting on millions. 

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38 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But anyway - the point is that as BTC gets nearer the 21m limit it takes more and more power to mine the coins and we end up with yet another system that favours the "already rich" who can afford the largest computing power, and craps on the little people who kinda mighta needed that electricity to heat their homes and cook their tea

You've also got to take in to account that around 20% of all BTC have been lost of the years as well so the theoretical cap for BTC really would be around 16m that would circulate making the currency even more rarer.

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Feel like if it had any real future it would be a threat to the $, €, £, ¥...

Therefore given governments have been fairly ambivalent over it's usage/governance/mining I don't think they consider it a viable future alternative to fiat currency, which is essentially it's aim. 

Maybe they're all wrong but I'm minded to take that as a sign that it's not really the future and therefore is essentially just another stock to invest in. One which seems to be growing in the same way any major tech company - Apple/Microsoft/Amazon has, but ultimately it doesn't make anything, nor does it serve a purpose, beyond buying Coke or guns, so I don't see the hype.

And it's a disaster for the environment so morally not sure I could support it in clear conscience.

Good luck to anyone who rolls the dice and puts their hard earned cash into it, but just know that you're essentially just playing roulette and are not in fact Charlie Sheen in Wall Street.

Edited by JoetheRam
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1 hour ago, JoetheRam said:

but ultimately it doesn't make anything, nor does it serve a purpose, beyond buying Coke or guns

This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses

Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. 

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23 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

My electricity company seem v proud in telling me every invoice I get that 100% of my electricity needs come from renewable sources 

to add … allegedly 70% of mined Bitcoin comes from renewable sources 

but your point is totally valid 

From what I've read, the majority of Bitcoin mining happens in Chinese provinces where the primary source of electricity is burning coal.

Crypto and NFTs together now omit more greenhouse gasses than is saved from using solar energy - or, to put it a different way, the world's entire investment in solar energy has been wiped by crypto currencies and NFTs.

I've read another paper  - from 2018 admittedly, but things aren't changing quickly so I suspect that this may still be true - that mining cryptocurrencies consumes more energy per dollar created than pure gold.

In theory, we could live in a world where mining bitcoin and the like is totally renewable. We're very far off that theoretical world at the moment because it's so cheap to burn coal and effectively turn it into something more valuable that doesn't physically exist. 

I get why people are tempted by the idea of making money, but considering the state of our planet, I think we need to urgently have this conversation more often.

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3 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses

Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe until recently, in some parts of the world it was possible to walk into a Tesla dealership and buy a car using bitcoin.

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4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

This is another good point - does anyone holding crypto actually use it to pay for anything? I don't know anyone who does, and I don't think I've ever seen anywhere online offering me the option of paying in BTC. The only people i know holding it, are doing just that. "Currency" trading in a currency that no one uses

Which is another reason why I question if it has a serious future. It won't ever become accepted as a currency until "normal" people have a reason to spend it on goods. 

It’s more about the blockchain technology.. the crypto currencies are mainly an asset of worth, allow u to operate on those networks and allow it to be represented as a tradable commodity 

It’s a big misconception 

take an example 

the ethereum network allows people to operate smart contracts and apps to run off the network 

one some people may be familiar with is the game Sorare that’s a digital football trading card game that runs on the ethereum network 

On the football theme as it’s closer to home for many of us here there’s a token called chillies.. not sure what network or blockchain it’s on but it’s a token that a host of top clubs have bought into

i can’t be bothered to explain how it works but if u google it it’s effectively like a little mini share issue if u will

fans can hold the tokens In their club, it can be used for season ticket discounts, match day experience rewards and prize draws

it can and they hope it can go a lot lot further 

one club allowed their token holder fans to pick the side for a pre season friendly !!!! Lol

can imagine that here … would be carnage 

Edited by NottsRam77
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On 09/06/2021 at 15:43, NottsRam77 said:

SwissBorg, nexo and co offer interest rates that are too good to ignore 

8% on my gbp … or 0.01 on my post office savings account 

No brainer

Icelandic banks were doing something similar in 2007 until it all went pop.

Used to be penny shares back in the 80s. Google polly peck if you've never heard of it for a laugh.

Might win, might lose. All smells high risk to me but if you can buy in at a low unit price you can at least limit your losses.

I haven't yet been able to work out what stands behind crypto currencies in the way central banks do for notes and coins.

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2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Icelandic banks were doing something similar in 2007 until it all went pop.

Used to be penny shares back in the 80s. Google polly peck if you've never heard of it for a laugh.

Might win, might lose. All smells high risk to me but if you can buy in at a low unit price you can at least limit your losses.

I haven't yet been able to work out what stands behind crypto currencies in the way central banks do for notes and coins.

Remember the Penney shares thing lol 

them were the days 

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14 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

It’s more about the blockchain technology.. the crypto currencies are mainly an asset of worth, allow u to operate on those networks and allow it to be represented as a tradable commodity 

It’s a big misconception 

take an example 

the ethereum network allows people to operate smart contracts and apps to run off the network 

Yeah - but in terms of it replacing fiat currencies for day to day life - can you see it? 

 

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