Jump to content

Yankee Doodle Derby


Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Absolutely.

And, if Derby were such an attractive proposition, why are we dealing with chancers and time wasters?

If the American buyer/consortium have been sniffing for a while and if they were such a good deal for the club, albeit wanting to wait to see which division we were in, why did Mel choose to even entertain a deal with Alonso?

I think talks of multi billionaires buying us is a tad optimistic.

Spoilsport

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, mwram1973 said:

Spoilsport

Hey don't take my word for it, I'm hoping to God I'm so wrong and 12 billion dollar randy fancies taking over the mighty Rams.

I still think theres more chance of David Tenant dressed as Dr Who sitting in a press conference and telling us all we will be champions league in 5 years and Mick McCarthy is the man to get us there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

The main issue is the debt - if we're as riddled with it as many claim then I just don't see why anyone would want to be £60m under water when they could buy an almost 'identical' product in (for example only) Bristol City, Sunderland, Middlesborough, Swansea, Hull, Reading, Birmingham City, Blackburn, Huddersfield or many others without the same level of burden.

Founder member of the Football League? I see that being three bits of meaningless to pretty much any investor - EPL maybe but being in the same club as Accrington, Notts County, Bolton, Preston and Stoke back in 1888 is hardly a feat that will put a zero on the selling price. Like you said, without the emotion it's not much to bolster the sales price.

Final point, we're an attractive proposition in terms of infrastructure but even the most avid Derby fan would say that 35k is probably the best we would pull, even if we were top end of the EPL. And our global footprint, here and now, is really limited - Notts Forest, Middlesborough, Charlton, Fulham and even someone like Portsmouth would be a more internationally recognised option. We're a one city club, and a very well supported one, but not one that has a massive hinterland before we start getting into Notts, Leicester or Sheffield.

Derby have all the pieces in place to be a well run top end of the Championship / established EPL club. But - to your point - the last 18 months has really dented all but the infrastructure and leaves us rather unattractive as an option. We need to take our medicine, somehow get ourselves back in order and start to move things in the right direction before we can start dreaming. I know many on here think we're the ideal option for a growth minded businessman looking to invest in an English side - I think we're not till we have a more firm base to work from, which might even require an interim owner to steady the ship a little.

All fair points. But where were Leicester City 10 years ago?

I read in one of the broadsheets last year (Guardian I think) that their market value is now estimated to be £500m+. I suspect that would offer a decent ROI for their owners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, StarterForTen said:

All fair points. But where were Leicester City 10 years ago?

I read in one of the broadsheets last year (Guardian I think) that their market value is now estimated to be £500m+. I suspect that would offer a decent ROI for their owners.

Yup, and I'm by no means saying that Derby can't be an established EPL club but, in order:

1: Leicester were not £60m in debt, under transfer embargo, without filed accounts and coming off a season where they were three minutes from being relegated when they were bought. Indeed Vichai became a fan after watching them in the 1997 League Cup Final, not sure there are too many billionaires around who saw us at Wembley as their first game.

2: Sorry, but Leicester is a bigger city than Derby and with a much wider hinterland than us, stretching across to East Anglia and down to Northants.

3: They got there first, yes that could have been us but when the deal for Leicester went through in 2010 there was so much less of a gap than there is now.

4: The Leicester owners are, by pretty much all's acceptance, an anomaly in the modern game - there for the city and the club (for reasons I don't quite understand but still).

Life is unfair maybe, but it didn't happen to us and it's much more unlikely than ever to happen now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Yup, and I'm by no means saying that Derby can't be an established EPL club but, in order:

1: Leicester were not £60m in debt, under transfer embargo, without filed accounts and coming off a season where they were three minutes from being relegated when they were bought. Indeed Vichai became a fan after watching them in the 1997 League Cup Final, not sure there are too many billionaires around who saw us at Wembley as their first game.

2: Sorry, but Leicester is a bigger city than Derby and with a much wider hinterland than us, stretching across to East Anglia and down to Northants.

3: They got there first, yes that could have been us but when the deal for Leicester went through in 2010 there was so much less of a gap than there is now.

4: The Leicester owners are, by pretty much all's acceptance, an anomaly in the modern game - there for the city and the club (for reasons I don't quite understand but still).

Life is unfair maybe, but it didn't happen to us and it's much more unlikely than ever to happen now.

Never mind the fact that Leicester went into Admin and have never paid back their creditors and went up by breaking FFP. It’s all sweetness and light at the KP 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Yup, and I'm by no means saying that Derby can't be an established EPL club but, in order:

1: Leicester were not £60m in debt, under transfer embargo, without filed accounts and coming off a season where they were three minutes from being relegated when they were bought. Indeed Vichai became a fan after watching them in the 1997 League Cup Final, not sure there are too many billionaires around who saw us at Wembley as their first game.

2: Sorry, but Leicester is a bigger city than Derby and with a much wider hinterland than us, stretching across to East Anglia and down to Northants.

3: They got there first, yes that could have been us but when the deal for Leicester went through in 2010 there was so much less of a gap than there is now.

4: The Leicester owners are, by pretty much all's acceptance, an anomaly in the modern game - there for the city and the club (for reasons I don't quite understand but still).

Life is unfair maybe, but it didn't happen to us and it's much more unlikely than ever to happen now.

Again all very fair points. But I don’t give as much weight to point 2. Leicester might be a slightly bigger city than Derby but then they have two clubs to support - Tigers are the best supported rugby side in the UK. 

And Leicester weren’t in that rosey a state in 2010. Admittedly they were better positioned than we are now but they didn’t have the academy set up we have.

But we’re getting distracted by semantics, the point is that a journey for Derby like Leicester have been on is not too far of a stretch of the imagination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Absolutely.

And, if Derby were such an attractive proposition, why are we dealing with chancers and time wasters?

If the American buyer/consortium have been sniffing for a while and if they were such a good deal for the club, albeit wanting to wait to see which division we were in, why did Mel choose to even entertain a deal with Alonso?

I think talks of multi billionaires buying us is a tad optimistic.

Has it escaped your notice that the chancers were in before the season ended? You don't think that avoiding legation was perhaps the most salient piece in the jigsaw? 

Not everything is as black and white as you suppose, nor is anyone categorically stating that we are going to be bought out by a billionaire, because just like yourself, none of us knows. As far as I can see, folk are just musing on the possibilities based on rumor's that the current talks are with an American consortium and probably as a counter to the endless gloom and self-loathing that is so rife on this forum currently. Your only current rebuttal seems to be, 'yeah but he's got loads of money' for all the sense that makes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I still think theres more chance of David Tenant dressed as Dr Who sitting in a press conference and telling us all we will be champions league in 5 years and Mick McCarthy is the man to get us there.

I'll take that bet ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I'll take that bet ?

I'm happy to bet you 10 English pounds that David Tepper does not take over Derby County. If he does drop me a message and I'll happily pay, whether direct to you or a charity of choice.

If David Tenant takes over and appoints Mick McCarthy as manager then likewise, a tenner would be lovely ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Yup, and I'm by no means saying that Derby can't be an established EPL club but, in order:

1: Leicester were not £60m in debt, under transfer embargo, without filed accounts and coming off a season where they were three minutes from being relegated when they were bought. Indeed Vichai became a fan after watching them in the 1997 League Cup Final, not sure there are too many billionaires around who saw us at Wembley as their first game.

2: Sorry, but Leicester is a bigger city than Derby and with a much wider hinterland than us, stretching across to East Anglia and down to Northants.

3: They got there first, yes that could have been us but when the deal for Leicester went through in 2010 there was so much less of a gap than there is now.

4: The Leicester owners are, by pretty much all's acceptance, an anomaly in the modern game - there for the city and the club (for reasons I don't quite understand but still).

Life is unfair maybe, but it didn't happen to us and it's much more unlikely than ever to happen now.

Yes it is but its hardly a thriving metropolis in comparison. Leicester population 330k, Derby 250k & having lived in Leicester for a few years, I'd wager still that much of the population there (many of whom can be transient or temporary manual workers) don't follow the team. Compare with the big cities in the country (Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham) which are 1m minimum metropolitan area.

As to Leicester having a wider hinterland - they basically have a load of countryside & market towns to the south & east, not exactly hardcore catchment areas. To the North is Derby & Nottingham & to the west is Birmingham - they're going to struggle to get traction that side. They will undoubtedly have a bigger global footprint than us now but in terms of UK based support, I'd still fancy us to get similar crowds home & away even at our level.

As to your points about it never happening to us or the gap now too big - whilst we have a fluid promotion/relegation system, there will always be opportunities to move up the pyramid. The money gap has always been there but there will only ever be 11 men on a pitch & fresh ideas + complacency/poor management of established clubs will always see change. There are so many examples of clubs dramatically changing status in 5/10 years - we've seen it ourselves between 1966-1972 & 1984-1989. It can happen & it will happen again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, richinspain said:

Bloody rubbish on grass!

Oooooooh, aren't we redoing the pitch? Could be astroturf so that his wheels don't get stuck!

Will be embarrassing if he is made captain and has to lift the FA Cup init?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Yes it is but its hardly a thriving metropolis in comparison. Leicester population 330k, Derby 250k & having lived in Leicester for a few years, I'd wager still that much of the population there (many of whom can be transient or temporary manual workers) don't follow the team. Compare with the big cities in the country (Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham) which are 1m minimum metropolitan area.

As to Leicester having a wider hinterland - they basically have a load of countryside & market towns to the south & east, not exactly hardcore catchment areas. To the North is Derby & Nottingham & to the west is Birmingham - they're going to struggle to get traction that side. They will undoubtedly have a bigger global footprint than us now but in terms of UK based support, I'd still fancy us to get similar crowds home & away even at our level.

As to your points about it never happening to us or the gap now too big - whilst we have a fluid promotion/relegation system, there will always be opportunities to move up the pyramid. The money gap has always been there but there will only ever be 11 men on a pitch & fresh ideas + complacency/poor management of established clubs will always see change. There are so many examples of clubs dramatically changing status in 5/10 years - we've seen it ourselves between 1966-1972 & 1984-1989. It can happen & it will happen again.

Great post but something, something, bah, humbug, I'm gonna piss on your chips, something, err... ?‍♂️

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I'm happy to bet you 10 English pounds that David Tepper does not take over Derby County. If he does drop me a message and I'll happily pay, whether direct to you or a charity of choice.

If David Tenant takes over and appoints Mick McCarthy as manager then likewise, a tenner would be lovely ?

What if David Tepper takes over and appoints Mick McCarthy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dethorn said:

Great post - in fact to emphasise one of your points the bad season may bring the price down and make it more attractive. And to add another point, a global name like Wayne Rooney probably helps too.

What is the price though? Isn't it Mel Morris setting that rather than our league position. Which would explain a great many things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Yes it is but its hardly a thriving metropolis in comparison. Leicester population 330k, Derby 250k & having lived in Leicester for a few years, I'd wager still that much of the population there (many of whom can be transient or temporary manual workers) don't follow the team. Compare with the big cities in the country (Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham) which are 1m minimum metropolitan area.

As to Leicester having a wider hinterland - they basically have a load of countryside & market towns to the south & east, not exactly hardcore catchment areas. To the North is Derby & Nottingham & to the west is Birmingham - they're going to struggle to get traction that side. They will undoubtedly have a bigger global footprint than us now but in terms of UK based support, I'd still fancy us to get similar crowds home & away even at our level.

As to your points about it never happening to us or the gap now too big - whilst we have a fluid promotion/relegation system, there will always be opportunities to move up the pyramid. The money gap has always been there but there will only ever be 11 men on a pitch & fresh ideas + complacency/poor management of established clubs will always see change. There are so many examples of clubs dramatically changing status in 5/10 years - we've seen it ourselves between 1966-1972 & 1984-1989. It can happen & it will happen again.

Spot on with your comments about Leicester’s fan base. No bigger than ours. That could change the longer they compete at the top. 

As for the pyramid still presenting opportunities, I disagree. Yes it happened between 66-72 and 84-89 and even 96-00 but the longer the parachute payments continue those days are in danger of never happening again. It was so much more of a level playing field. I remember Forest winning div 2 and finishing 3rd in the premier league the following season. Never going to happen again. 

There has always been bigger clubs and smaller clubs, there has always been disparity but it has never been great as it is now and it’s only getting wider. Even if we made it up to the premier league the chances of surviving  would be slim, gone are the days where you can get promoted and mix it. 

Our only chance is a slow steady build hope   3 or 4 of our academy players make the jump to be top players at the same time (eg Will and Jeff) and then it will take a lot of luck at the end of it, luck we didn’t have in 13/14 play off final and in 14/15 run in when our small squad was decimated by injury at the key time and ended up one of the few teams in second tier history to amass 78 points and still missed out on the playoffs.

Having the parachute payments is no guarantee but it takes serious mismanagement to not be promoted. Parker was an inexperienced crap manager no tactics or plan, his squad got him promoted. They’ve been relegated again yet he’s going to be given a budget to win promotion. They’ll probably keep mitrovic. That’s what we’re up against.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Spot on with your comments about Leicester’s fan base. No bigger than ours. That could change the longer they compete at the top. 

As for the pyramid still presenting opportunities, I disagree. Yes it happened between 66-72 and 84-89 and even 96-00 but the longer the parachute payments continue those days are in danger of never happening again. It was so much more of a level playing field. I remember Forest winning div 2 and finishing 3rd in the premier league the following season. Never going to happen again. 

There has always been bigger clubs and smaller clubs, there has always been disparity but it has never been great as it is now and it’s only getting wider. Even if we made it up to the premier league the chances of surviving  would be slim, gone are the days where you can get promoted and mix it. 

Our only chance is a slow steady build hope   3 or 4 of our academy players make the jump to be top players at the same time (eg Will and Jeff) and then it will take a lot of luck at the end of it, luck we didn’t have in 13/14 play off final and in 14/15 run in when our small squad was decimated by injury at the key time and ended up one of the few teams in second tier history to amass 78 points and still missed out on the playoffs.

Having the parachute payments is no guarantee but it takes serious mismanagement to not be promoted. Parker was an inexperienced crap manager no tactics or plan, his squad got him promoted. They’ve been relegated again yet he’s going to be given a budget to win promotion. They’ll probably keep mitrovic. That’s what we’re up against.

 

 

Obviously I've got a very different take on future chances but I do agree that the slow steady build up is the way to go. Successful teams evolve, they're not thrown together & recruitment should be totally focused on getting the best players possible to suit that style. All about blend not cost. This is why Im so passionate about wanting a Director of Football to run the football operation & a low key but outstanding coach to manage the side. 

Like you say, the slow evolution should have paid off in 13/14 with our mixture of freebies & kids so that kind of proves the theory. The fact we then went on a spending spree (much like 1991-93 under Pickering) only to fail proves money isn't as important as it would appear. There are plenty of other high spending examples at this level that have gone wrong.

If we'd have spoken in 2012, Im sure we'd have agreed no-one outside of Manchester, Liverpool or Chelsea/Arsenal could ever win the title again such was the advantage of CL money (another league within a league). If you'd have asked a Leeds fan in 2012 the next time they'd be aiming for a CL place, they'd have laughed. I bet they get very close to it next season.

Football has always been cyclical. Without getting too happy clappy, its good to have hope & dreams...that's what football is all about IMO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account.

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...