Was it really so bad to spend and try and get to Prem .

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, i-Ram said:

Portsmouth and Sunderland gambled big too.

Mel bought the club, and is entitled in many ways to spend as little or as much money he likes to chase his dream. He however had/has, in my view, a responsibility to have a long term plan to protect the best interests of our club, and as custodian to always be in a position to ensure that funds are available so the club does not go under. He remains a very rich man fortunately, so therefore there really is no reason why he should not keep funding the club until he has passed the baton to a new ‘fit and proper’ owner.

Spending money wasn’t really the problem Curtains. Having apparently no strategic plan (other than something about the ‘Derby way’), no decent (or at least assertive) senior executives, and hiring a rag tag bunch of managers has been the problem, changing our shape, systems, and playing personnel every managerial change. 

I do think Mel has come under pressure at times from fans to sack managers though and I don’t think he can be blamed also for the likes of Lampard leaving.  

[RadioactiveWaste]

The "sin" wasn't the spending, it was the dancing around to try and avoid the consiquences of it. That, and failing.

Suppose in 2016 we'd have cut our cloth, accepted a few seasons of being mediocer whilst we build another challenge and taken the hit on blackman, butterfield and others not working out, we'd not be the villain of the piece we currently find ourselves.

It is what it is, we failed, we're extreamly unpopular in the division, but we are still Derby fans, and always will be, and this cycle will run it's final course and a new cycle will start soon and we'll hope for better times. I don't think there are many Derby fans who came for the kudos or the football hopsterism, but I think we all enjoyed being a well run club, liked and respected as a proper football club with loyal fans. And that's what everyone will see us as agin, just going to take a little time.

 

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

But isn't that the fault of the different managers that we had? Mel just backed their judgment.

As I've said, I think Mel's mistake has been the managerial appointments that he made.

But at the time a lot of fans agreed with the manager appointments .

Anyhow I’m just trying to get some views on the reasons for our problems.

I still think we aren’t guilty of anything regarding the EFL charges and I believe our amortisation policy and ground sale was cleared . 
 

The EFL appeal was nonsensical and costly. 
 

I still think DC will not give us a points deduction.

If Mel stays I’m sure he will see us right. 

[i-Ram]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I do think Mel has come under pressure at times from fans to sack managers though and I don’t think he can be blamed also for the likes of Lampard leaving.  

He was unlucky to a degree with Lampard Curtains, but he should have known he was taking a real risk hiring him. He was either going to struggle through inexperience, or have a good first year and then be attracted by a Russian, or anyone else with some big money, waving their frilly knickers at him.  To have gone with Rowett, then allow Lampard to come in and play a completely different system, selling Vydra and buying some complete dross instead (and paying huge irrecoverable loan fees) was Morris’s fault. As for Club Owners coming under pressure from Fans to sack Managers, when did that alien concept start?

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, i-Ram said:

He was unlucky to a degree with Lampard Curtains, but he should have known he was taking a real risk hiring him. He was either going to struggle through inexperience, or have a good first year and then be attracted by a Russian, or anyone else with some big money, waving their frilly knickers at him.  To have gone with Rowett, then allow Lampard to come in and play a completely different system, selling Vydra and buying some complete dross instead (and paying huge irrecoverable loan fees) was Morris’s fault. As for Club Owners coming under pressure from Fans to sack Managers, when did that alien concept start?

Lampard was a risk but some fans will never forget Leeds away that got us to Wembley.

Didn't hear fans having a go at Mel then. .

I have criticized Mel but I would never kick someone when they are down .

I was delighted with Derby fans last Saturday backing the club .

We need more of that .

We will be back at PP soon thank goodness and hope it’s in the Championship 

[24Charlie]

I don't have a problem with Mel in the past. Just a fan with the means to try and make his dream come true.

It's since he decided to sell, from Gabay onwards that's been the issue. His focus has been on selling and he has neglected the rest. Not replacing Martin with the big German because he didn't want to pay what was necessary is just one thing. Not submitting accounts on time which meant we were on a soft embargo through the January window and not paying the players were a serious management errors and allowing the club to become a farce with the BZI and Alonso chancers is a disgrace

Edited May 12, 2021 by 24Charlie

[Charliegeorge1962]

Going through managers like old slippers, constantly swapping players.

We need to start again with the basics.

Love or hate Rooney he's our manager and we need to learn from the mistakes over the last 5 or 6 seasons.

 

[Tyler Durden]

19 minutes ago, Curtains said:

But at the time a lot of fans agreed with the manager appointments .

Anyhow I’m just trying to get some views on the reasons for our problems.

I still think we aren’t guilty of anything regarding the EFL charges and I believe our amortisation policy and ground sale was cleared . 
 

The EFL appeal was nonsensical and costly. 
 

I still think DC will not give us a points deduction.

If Mel stays I’m sure he will see us right. 

Gross generalisation. And what bearing does it have on the matter if the fans did agree, it's the owner who is accountable for recruiting a successful manager.

[Curtains]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

Gross generalisation. And what bearing does it have on the matter if the fans did agree, it's the owner who is accountable for recruiting a successful manager.

Very true you win 

[GrimsbyRam]

1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said:

In hindsight yes but the ride at times was exciting. It's just painful watching it all unravel. 

We didn’t need to be reckless - we had a nucleus of players only tweaks needed the chopping and changing of managers and players meant a mis match - there has been no continuity 

[brady1993]

The problem wasn't so much the spending. The problem wasn't even really gambling on going up. The problem was that combined with the following factors;

1. Schizophrenic changes in management
2. Shallow scouting
3. Overpaying and handing out massive contracts to players who were coming off a hot streak
4. Buying without a clear idea of how the player was going to fit or complement the squad
5. An overall lack of planning and direction

The frequent changes in not only management but playing style as well has meant that huge sections of the squad are no longer suitable from one season to the next and it took a lot of ground work to shift back and forth from style to style. It's felt at times like we never getting beyond laying the ground work of a squad but still accumulate a whole raft of players that just don't fit what we are trying to do. Whatever your opinion about playing style and it's importance, it's vital for any success in this division to craft a squad where the different parts of the squad complement one another and fit an overall cohesive plan. Due to the nature of players at this level they tend to be pretty skilled in a few areas but week in others, so you have to think about how best to fit them in and what kinds of players you need around them to get the most out of them. 

I've mentioned it before but the underlying issues with our transfer activity in the past 5 or so years can be largely encapsulated in a single transfer; Bradley Johnson. Now, I pick out Johnson not because he's a bad player but because he's a decent player that we signed for the wrong reasons and we really didn't think it through. For a bit of context I think it's important to remember a few things going into 15/16 we had a squad developed around quick passing football, a really strong set of midfielders where we had just been hit by a couple key injuries, we had just signed Butterfield and we were transitioning to slower possession based game under Clement. It was really debatable whether we needed to add another midfielder especially one that wasn't a specialist DM  and especially on a long term deal but if we were going to sign someone it was blatently apparent that the midfielder needed to be really good on the ball and capable of creating space for both themselves and their teammates. Yet we sign Johnson, a player who just so clearly was not suited for that type of play given his poor ball retention, not being the most mobile  and not being great at finding space; he was almost the opposite of what we needed out of an advanced midfielder at that point. But not only do we sign him, we break the transfer record for a player Norwich were trying to sell and give a 29 year old a massive, long contract. All in all we end up massively overpaying for a player that doesn't complement the squad, doesn't fit how we were trying to play, don't take into account why he'd been successful previously and in a position we were already well stocked.

TLDR; Just because you can spend 6M on a player doesn't mean you get to switch your brain off and not do due diligence

[Gringo]

17 hours ago, Curtains said:

Because administration will allow the buyer to get rid of some of the debts 

You do realise that if the club was to go into administration season ticket holders as unsecured creditors would get ZERO refunds.

[May Contain Nuts]

16 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Suppose in 2016 we'd have cut our cloth, accepted a few seasons of being mediocre whilst we build another challenge...

Did you see how some of our fans handled a season of mediocrity in 2019/20, or during the poorer patches under Rowett or Lampard? 

Acceptance was not on the table.

[TheAllestreeRam]

32 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

The problem wasn't so much the spending. The problem wasn't even really gambling on going up. The problem was that combined with the following factors;

1. Schizophrenic changes in management
2. Shallow scouting
3. Overpaying and handing out massive contracts to players who were coming off a hot streak
4. Buying without a clear idea of how the player was going to fit or complement the squad
5. An overall lack of planning and direction

The frequent changes in not only management but playing style as well has meant that huge sections of the squad are no longer suitable from one season to the next and it took a lot of ground work to shift back and forth from style to style. It's felt at times like we never getting beyond laying the ground work of a squad but still accumulate a whole raft of players that just don't fit what we are trying to do. Whatever your opinion about playing style and it's importance, it's vital for any success in this division to craft a squad where the different parts of the squad complement one another and fit an overall cohesive plan. Due to the nature of players at this level they tend to be pretty skilled in a few areas but week in others, so you have to think about how best to fit them in and what kinds of players you need around them to get the most out of them. 

I've mentioned it before but the underlying issues with our transfer activity in the past 5 or so years can be largely encapsulated in a single transfer; Bradley Johnson. Now, I pick out Johnson not because he's a bad player but because he's a decent player that we signed for the wrong reasons and we really didn't think it through. For a bit of context I think it's important to remember a few things going into 15/16 we had a squad developed around quick passing football, a really strong set of midfielders where we had just been hit by a couple key injuries, we had just signed Butterfield and we were transitioning to slower possession based game under Clement. It was really debatable whether we needed to add another midfielder especially one that wasn't a specialist DM  and especially on a long term deal but if we were going to sign someone it was blatently apparent that the midfielder needed to be really good on the ball and capable of creating space for both themselves and their teammates. Yet we sign Johnson, a player who just so clearly was not suited for that type of play given his poor ball retention, not being the most mobile  and not being great at finding space; he was almost the opposite of what we needed out of an advanced midfielder at that point. But not only do we sign him, we break the transfer record for a player Norwich were trying to sell and give a 29 year old a massive, long contract. All in all we end up massively overpaying for a player that doesn't complement the squad, doesn't fit how we were trying to play, don't take into account why he'd been successful previously and in a position we were already well stocked.

TLDR; Just because you can spend 6M on a player doesn't mean you get to switch your brain off and not do due diligence

Very good diagnosis. 

The problem wasnt the spending but how the money was spent. 

Change of manager = change of squad and the greater the gap in playing style the more players will be useless to the new manager. Mel only really got the idea between Lampard and cocu by trying to bring someone in who wanted to play possession based football, and even then the style was massively different. 

Johnson is a great example, scored 15 or so goals for norwich from left wing and we proceeded to buy him and try to turn him into a DM. He did well in the end I thought but we could have brought a DM for less than half what johnson cost at a much younger age and not have to wait 2 seasons for him to learn the position. 

Just throwing money at things and hoping for the best isnt how to achieve success. 

[Ambitious]

The flip side is just imagine how bad we would be with the same decision-makers on a lower budget? 

Jesus. 

[Sparkle]

For me it’s the manager situations that have been rather interesting 

mac 1 - I wouldn’t have sacked him at that point ( wait and take the Newcastle money if he wanted out) 

Clement - huge gamble with a very decent squad and panic stupid signings of Butterfield Johnson Blackman 

Wassell - did ok actually whilst he stepped in 

Mac 2 - why sack him if we brought him back? 

Pearson - I expected a disaster and it arrived - signed a good player in Vydra only to send out his perfect foil in Martin out on loan but he also blew half the Hendrick money on Anya - nuts that was 

Rowett - did a lot better with less money but he wanted out when he was told to sell players and have less of them whilst Stoke offered him everything and off he went 

lampard - I really enjoyed that season and strangely the loan signings were great and the Permanent ones were over priced and at best decidedly average.

Cocu - I just felt sorry for him - chaos all around him but not his fault - boring football with no centre forwards until he actually saw Chris Martin on a football pitch 

Rooney - who knows but I would like to give him a chance without having his hands tied behind his back in terms of who he can select 

all in all Mac 1 obviously and lampard season were great fun whilst Rowett actually had us play as a unit despite being rather boring to watch.

[BathRam72]

20 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

I'm sure we will.

But it's just painful at the moment. 

Let me tell you though, when the good days do return, it'll be great

Could be a very long time though. All this has probably knocked us back at least 5 years

[Rosythram]

Does anyone know of an alternative way of getting out of the championship into the premier league other than spending copious amounts of money hopefully gaining promotion and then spend another stupid a amount to try and stay in the upper echelons.

Then we wonder why we can’t find a new owner!

[G STAR RAM]

33 minutes ago, Rosythram said:

Does anyone know of an alternative way of getting out of the championship into the premier league other than spending copious amounts of money hopefully gaining promotion and then spend another stupid a amount to try and stay in the upper echelons.

Then we wonder why we can’t find a new owner!

The other way is to let a manager build his own squad and maybe have a season or two to let that come together, there would be zero appetite for that though from a large part of our fanbase.

[G STAR RAM]

The big spending Derby thing is a bit of a myth.

Other than a mad 6 months our transfer spend has been pretty minimal as Crown jewels have been traded in to develop the squad. 

Its the wage bill that has absolutely crippled us.

It was understandable to break the bank to try and keep the 2013/14 together but the contracts that were handed out after that were just ridiculous and completely unsustainable.