POLL: “Survival” is it success or failure?

[Leeds Ram]

3 hours ago, Curtains said:

Not you personally mate .

It seems though that if things go wrong the Manager has to go with people calling for it very quickly.

Now if he goes it will be expensive and who would make the decisions.on the way forward.

I actually made a thread about who was in charge and it didn’t go down well .

 

Ahh right ? I think at most clubs if an unqualified former player with no experience had picked up 1 win in 12 most clubs fans would be wanting him shown the door. I'm not saying we haven't played managerial merry go round in the last 6 years with some unjust sackings but I really think keeping Rooney is asking for disaster. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Derby should always consider finishing in the Top 6 of this league the minimum requirement.  Rooney was banging on about automatic promotion next season only 2 months ago.

Just staying up in this league is failure, dropping out of it should be concrete boots and a visit to the Derwent for all involved.

[AndyinLiverpool]

I don't understand the 'don't judge him till he's had a pre-season etc' argument. Don't they have training every day?

Do we just let him off for the time he's already had? Now, I admit I am not the most level-headed person on this forum and I'd have sacked him for the Cardiff game alone but if we're to forgive him his appalling performance so far, surely we'd like to see some evidence that he can improve things. I certainly have not seen any evidence at all.

[Tamworthram]

34 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Derby should always consider finishing in the Top 6 of this league the minimum requirement.  Rooney was banging on about automatic promotion next season only 2 months ago.

Just staying up in this league is failure, dropping out of it should be concrete boots and a visit to the Derwent for all involved.

The trouble is, when you include the teams that have been relegated, I imagine there are a fans from a lot more than six teams that consider a top 6 finish as a minimum. 
 

if by some miracle we survive and then manage to finish maybe 7th to 10th next year then I don’t think I’d be calling for the head of the manager - whoever that may be.

[FindernRam]

2 hours ago, NottsRammy said:

i honestly dont think its fair to judge him till he has had a pre season and his own squad

He's been here long enough to know the players strength's and weaknesses. This pre-season stuff is just a pathetic excuse managers / fans use when things go wrong. There is no evidence his training time is being put to good use now. Even poor players get shot on target occasionally, and defenders do head now and again, but not Derby. It seems to me training is a low key jolly and not much else. We are unfit rubbish and whilst I'm all for stability,  up or down, we need a big change of management and coaches next season.

[Steve How Hard?]

Can anyone actually say they won't celebrate survival? Ok a huge sigh of relief will probably be the first reaction but I'll definitely have a celebratory drink. 

When was the last time you celebrated failure? That's a Derby County failure. Forests last game of last season does not count but  it is definitely up there with my best football celebrations. 

[Ken Tram]

The polls from the time of Cocu's sacking can remind us of our expectations at the time.

Survival can be seen as a success if, for example, most of us expected relegation, or a bottom six finish.

I cannot remember the poll results!

[TheTinMan]

I voted success. We were in a bad position when he came in and I don't think he was backed enough in the transfer windoew given how grave the situation was. Its a small success in the context of a terrible season and is nothing to celebrate more a big relief should we survive and perhaps as importantly get the ownership sorted. 

[Half Fan Half Biscuit]

We were bottom of the league when he took over so staying up must be success. 
 

Should it happen, the manner of achieving it is up for debate. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

The trouble is, when you include the teams that have been relegated, I imagine there are a fans from a lot more than six teams that consider a top 6 finish as a minimum. 
 

if by some miracle we survive and then manage to finish maybe 7th to 10th next year then I don’t think I’d be calling for the head of the manager - whoever that may be.

Derby, Forest, Sheff Wednesday should expect a guaranteed top 6 finish.  Boro, Birmingham, Stoke, Coventry with the length of time they spent there without dropping and QPR should be expecting to challenge for one but know they have to battle it out between them. 

The rest like Watford, Bournemouth, Brentford, Swansea  et al including Norwich who spent about 40 years outside the top two divisions prior to a spell up in the 80's/90's can bugger off.

Sorry but I'm old money ? 

[TomG]

IF we survive, I would see it as a 'successful failure'!

[Day]

The problem with calling it success, it sounds like we should be celebrating where I think many will find it difficult, myself included.

I personally will just be thankful this season is over with and look forward to the Euros.

But from where Rooney took over, to avoid relegation shouldn’t be sniffed at either, it’s been an extremely difficult situation to come in to, especially as your first job. Let’s not forget there is a global pandemic going on, clubs have seen barely any revenue and the owner has had health issues which appears to have fast tracked the desire to be taken over.

I have no doubt more experienced managers would also have struggled, our squad is thinner than Rooney’s hair and the injuries to key players and loan players has been difficult to overcome.

Has he made mistakes? Of course, this is his first job, he was always going to make mistakes as will any other rookie manager be it at Derby, Real Madrid or Barrow.

He would be worthy of credit and let’s not deprive him of that. However he should be under no illusion that this club without sounding arrogant will not be happy with survival in this league in future seasons.

That’s not to say next season we should be demanding top 6 again, but there needs to be improvement where our status in this league is not questionable in April going into May.

[LeedsCityRam]

26 minutes ago, David said:

The problem with calling it success, it sounds like we should be celebrating where I think many will find it difficult, myself included.

I personally will just be thankful this season is over with and look forward to the Euros.

But from where Rooney took over, to avoid relegation shouldn’t be sniffed at either, it’s been an extremely difficult situation to come in to, especially as your first job. Let’s not forget there is a global pandemic going on, clubs have seen barely any revenue and the owner has had health issues which appears to have fast tracked the desire to be taken over.

I have no doubt more experienced managers would also have struggled, our squad is thinner than Rooney’s hair and the injuries to key players and loan players has been difficult to overcome.

Has he made mistakes? Of course, this is his first job, he was always going to make mistakes as will any other rookie manager be it at Derby, Real Madrid or Barrow.

He would be worthy of credit and let’s not deprive him of that. However he should be under no illusion that this club without sounding arrogant will not be happy with survival in this league in future seasons.

That’s not to say next season we should be demanding top 6 again, but there needs to be improvement where our status in this league is not questionable in April going into May.

That's all fair comment on the surface & most novice managers would have struggled.

However, it misses two key points; a) Rooney was a key player in the side that got us bottom of the league by November and was clearly unprofessional being in such poor physical condition & b) his role in undermining Cocu with his agent clearly briefing the press & his role in demanding a change in tactics after Blackburn

Rooney has said on a number of occasions that this squad should be nowhere near the bottom & that come the end of the season, we would be nowhere near the bottom. I sense he saw this as a pretty good gig by the summer - a talented squad that needed the restrictions of the Cocu regime lifting & could give him a platform to move onto bigger and better jobs. I think he's been very naive & pretty arrogant at times in his media comms and in view of that, I have very little sympathy for him.

[Day]

4 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

However, it misses two key points; a) Rooney was a key player in the side that got us bottom of the league by November and was clearly in poor physical condition & b) his role in undermining Cocu with his agent clearly briefing the press & his role in demanding a change in tactics after Blackburn

Point a doesn’t really apply as we’re talking about his time as manager this season, not a player.

Point b, we have no proof that was Rooney or his agent putting him forward for the job, that could have easily been media putting 2+2 together as they often do to gain the clicks. Let’s not forget, his name is huge in football.

Not sure that either applies when discussing if his time as manager as been a success or failure.

[Abu Derby]

I’ve always thought, back to when Cocu was in charge that we’ll have done very if we stay up. 
The back end of last season and the start of this was so bad, such that we were always going to be fighting relegation. 

[BramcoteRam84]

I went failure but the poll is too binary.

If we survive turn the way to assess it would be over Rooney’s whole tenure and the PPG. Now I’m counting Rooney as being in charge from game 14 the Wycombe home game. That’s 37 points from 30 games a PPG of 1.23 per game, which taken over the season is about 57 points. If we keep this same points per game rate we will probably survive. Good? (no), Failure (no), Bang average (yes). But would this squad be capable much more?
 

That’s the balanced way of looking at it as we have to remember the first 18 games we’re playoff form, cannot just pretend they didn’t happen to suit a narrative against him.

The concerning thing for me is the performance on Tuesday was reminiscent of the performances at the end of Cocu’s reign. Cocu had clearly lost the dressing room and he had no answers, it was identical with Rooney on Tuesday in our biggest game of the season, his bullishness was gone he was shell shocked. That is why every fibre of my being thinks if he stays to the end of the season we will barely get another point, and if we stay up it will be due to the failures of others. 
 

Ive lost all faith that he is the right man to take us forward. We need someone who knows what they’re doing to build a team and our club again. 

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, David said:

Point a doesn’t really apply as we’re talking about his time as manager this season, not a player.

Point b, we have no proof that was Rooney or his agent putting him forward for the job, that could have easily been media putting 2+2 together as they often do to gain the clicks. Let’s not forget, his name is huge in football.

Not sure that either applies when discussing if his time as manager as been a success or failure.

The points were in response to the context of him having inherited a difficult situation, which is true but is a situation he was very culpable in creating. Its a bit like feeling sorry for someone having to rebuild their house, until you learnt they burnt it down in the first place.

Lets not forget he was both a coach & a captain on the field as well as a hugely experienced player that everyone else will have looked up to. Turning up in June looking like he'd been on an all-inclusive for the last month & then disappearing off for Sport Relief must have had a real effect on the professionalism of the group as a whole. He was also scathing about the complicated tactics under Cocu during his first press conference, which Im sure will have been made clear to the squad well before then. With his standing, that must have been very hard for Cocu to manage.

You're right no proof about his agent but the John Gregory story was so outlandish, it could have only come from someone with intimate knowledge of Stretford's clients. Think your average tabloid journo would have picked a more glamorous sidekick than someone whose last 3 jobs were FC Kairat, Crawley Town & Chennaiyin in India.

[Comrade 86]

33 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

The points were in response to the context of him having inherited a difficult situation, which is true but is a situation he was very culpable in creating. Its a bit like feeling sorry for someone having to rebuild their house, until you learnt they burnt it down in the first place.

Lets not forget he was both a coach & a captain on the field as well as a hugely experienced player that everyone else will have looked up to. Turning up in June looking like he'd been on an all-inclusive for the last month & then disappearing off for Sport Relief must have had a real effect on the professionalism of the group as a whole. He was also scathing about the complicated tactics under Cocu during his first press conference, which Im sure will have been made clear to the squad well before then. With his standing, that must have been very hard for Cocu to manage.

You're right no proof about his agent but the John Gregory story was so outlandish, it could have only come from someone with intimate knowledge of Stretford's clients. Think your average tabloid journo would have picked a more glamorous sidekick than someone whose last 3 jobs were FC Kairat, Crawley Town & Chennaiyin in India.

Spot on ?

[europia]

14 hours ago, Duracell said:

At the start of his appointment, I would have said 'success' if you told me we would stay up. But context is so important.

 I thought Nigel was a success because despite the negative football and the lack of any sort of tactics, he somehow improved us every season while slashing the budget, laying the groundwork for our best season since TBE. That was the context.

The context with Rooney is that since his best player has been injured, we have gone backwards fast and we are no better than when we sacked the previous manager. What was the point in sacking Cocu if you deem this a success? He's done nothing Cocu couldn't do, other than starting CKR, and perhaps that would have happened anyway.

I'm not necessarily slating Rooney off as a manager forever, but this isn't the time for him to be working out what sort of coach he is. And that's exactly what he's been doing - chopping and changing the team, giving off conflicting interview styles (some games are 'must-win', but also he's not worried about us being relegated??) and sharing hypothetical ideas of how he would like his teams to play one day. We should have appointed someone who knew how to do all that already.

Get rid of him at the end of the season and appoint someone who doesn't see managing us as some sort of gap year for head coaches.  

Good points. Rooney has gone from hero to zero in a relatively short space of time, but that's football. His performance reflects exactly what he is; an inexperienced and under qualified manager, an ambitious guy who was offered a 'wrong place, wrong time' opportunity. Personally I don't agree with the character assassination, but I do understand fans frustrations. 

[Jimbo Ram]

4 hours ago, David said:

The problem with calling it success, it sounds like we should be celebrating where I think many will find it difficult, myself included.

I personally will just be thankful this season is over with and look forward to the Euros.

But from where Rooney took over, to avoid relegation shouldn’t be sniffed at either, it’s been an extremely difficult situation to come in to, especially as your first job. Let’s not forget there is a global pandemic going on, clubs have seen barely any revenue and the owner has had health issues which appears to have fast tracked the desire to be taken over.

I have no doubt more experienced managers would also have struggled, our squad is thinner than Rooney’s hair and the injuries to key players and loan players has been difficult to overcome.

Has he made mistakes? Of course, this is his first job, he was always going to make mistakes as will any other rookie manager be it at Derby, Real Madrid or Barrow.

He would be worthy of credit and let’s not deprive him of that. However he should be under no illusion that this club without sounding arrogant will not be happy with survival in this league in future seasons.

That’s not to say next season we should be demanding top 6 again, but there needs to be improvement where our status in this league is not questionable in April going into May.

Have we survived???