Where did it go wrong?

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, EraniosSocks said:

Mel Morris Advisors. 

 

The thing that always makes me laugh is the structure of thought that initially went into the Cocu appointment.

 

Morris openly admitted he had found a article on the internet and this said article had mentioned how cocu was the leading manager for bringing youth through the system whilst bringing success. Just do a little bit more research at the time and goo could see PSV fans berating the play style that cocu had try to implement at the club and it's “boring yet lacklustre performances”.

 

I can literally list every manager that has been at the club and how Mel has had a “run-in” with said manager.

 

Whoever advises Morris is also the criminal here. 

You think Mel listens to anyone else?

Edited April 21, 2021 by RoyMac5

[Simmo’s left foot]

A long list of bad decisions have stacked up to what we have now. Player signings on stupid fees and even more stupid wages, managers appointed who ended up poor.

Worse of all the club running at a vast loss each season was only going to result in one thing in the end. That's where we are now.

[brady1993]

At a macro level: too many impulsive decisions without clear direction. Too many managers and players have been brought on because they were the flavour of the month with zero insight into how they were going to fit into the club, work with the current playing staff, why they originally were performing like they were doing or do they fit into the direction the club wants to go down. 

All of above perfectly encapsulated by putting Rooney in charge. 

[Spanish]

49 minutes ago, Simmo’s left foot said:

A long list of bad decisions have stacked up to what we have now. Player signings on stupid fees and even more stupid wages, managers appointed who ended up poor.

Worse of all the club running at a vast loss each season was only going to result in one thing in the end. That's where we are now.

I fear we are not quite at the end yet

[BucksRam]

I'm in a right pickle on where to post.  This thread, Chris Wilder, the PNA Match Day thread, Rooney Out, Get Him Gone or Where Did it all go Wrong.  Any will do.  Held off posting last night as I was absolutely gutted and also feeling pretty emotional (not helped by my best mate's Dad dying).  I haven't seen such a poor display from the team we all love (to hate?) over such a consistently long period for I don't know how long.  Yeah we've had loads of bad luck but then you also make your own luck and I've seen little of that, only perhaps in tiny bursts.  Last night, almost to a man, there just seemed nothing there.  No spirit. No fight, literally nothing.  On more than one occasion players were just strolling about.  It made me so angry.  I teach my kids never to give up, to keep trying.  If they fail so be it but so long as they can hold their head up and say I genuinely tried then they get my support.  Lately I've seen hardly anything of the sort.  Lots of talk and bluster but on the pitch, nothing.  What happened to Derby - Pride of the County? As you can tell from my nametag, I'm not even from Derby, yet I still sat staring at the screen last night thinking "where's your pride?". 

Looking for the positive, we can still survive but the realist in me says we won't.  I truly hope I'm wrong but both Wednesday and Rotherham are showing true fighting spirit.  Jeez, even Wycombe are putting up a proper fight. Us? Not as far as I can see.  And we haven't even been relegated....yet. 

Yep, I'm really miffed. 

[ramsbottom]

1 hour ago, EraniosSocks said:

Mel Morris Advisors. 

 

The thing that always makes me laugh is the structure of thought that initially went into the Cocu appointment.

 

Morris openly admitted he had found a article on the internet and this said article had mentioned how cocu was the leading manager for bringing youth through the system whilst bringing success. Just do a little bit more research at the time and goo could see PSV fans berating the play style that cocu had try to implement at the club and it's “boring yet lacklustre performances”.

 

I can literally list every manager that has been at the club and how Mel has had a “run-in” with said manager.

 

Whoever advises Morris is also the criminal here. 

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/fourfourtwos-50-best-football-managers-world-2018

Here is the article in question, although it doesn't include the side box about his success with younger players...

[Ghost of Clough]

56 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

At a macro level: too many impulsive decisions without clear direction. Too many managers and players have been brought on because they were the flavour of the month with zero insight into how they were going to fit into the club, work with the current playing staff, why they originally were performing like they were doing or do they fit into the direction the club wants to go down. 

All of above perfectly encapsulated by putting Rooney in charge. 

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

Managers - Mac I, Clement, Pearson, Mac II, Rowett, Lampard, Cocu, Rooney... Not much consistency between one manager and the next.

15/16 - We already owned Keogh, Buxton and Shotton, we went out and signed Shackell and Pearce too. Thorne, Bryson, Hughes, Hendrick, we go out to sign Baird, Butterfield and Johnson all on permanent deals on high wages. Ince, Weimann, Camara, Blackman signed when we already had Russell and Dawkins. We had Forsyth, Olsson and Warnock all on permanent deals when we had a capable deputy in Lowe.

16/17 - signing Anya when we already had 6 wingers, 2 senior LBs and 2 RBs on the books. Loaning Martin out to another side chasing promotion, that making a mess of trying to get him back

17/18  - employing a manager who wanted to repalce young talent such as Hughes and Christie with ageing pros such as Wisdom and Huddlestone. Making a mess of the Kieftenbeld deal, whilst letting Bryson go out to a promotion rival

18/19 - Spending £5m on squad players (Jozefzoon, Holmes and Evans). Why sell Weimann for £2m if we have to spend £3m on Jozefzoon? Loaning Martin out again. Spending £3m on a LB who didn't improve the team.

19/20 - Spending out entire transfer budget on 1 player. Spending the remainder of our wage budget on an unfit player who doesn't suit the style of play 

[California Ram.]

With a hat tip to the mention of Charlie George’s injury, the true Derby answer is obviously ‘gypsy’s curse’. 

The bit that made me laugh was mention of ‘Mel Morris’s advisors’. I would argue the opposite - that he didn’t have consistent, senior advisors/board members.

I still don’t like all the criticism of him despite the mess. He backed managers and Rush with the money they asked for. He built an academy that we are rightly proud of. We want an owner to invest and he has done that. 

However, while the Leeds gamble on spending on promotion paid off, ours did not - and the pressure of FFP meant we could go no further with the manner of Lampard’s departure adding to the crisis. 

Where it has gone wrong this season is the gamble on Rooney as first player then manager, along with an arranged marriage with Rosenoir, the failed bid for Dursan, a dreadful injury crisis - particularly Bielik - and a decimated squad caused by the need to reduce a large wage bill (while wasting money on Ibe and Duncan)
 

Despite watching every game this season, first team and under 23. I actually still think we have a squad much better than our position - which lies the ‘blame’ on the coaching and management. 
 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by California Ram.

[IslandExile]

11 hours ago, Oldben said:

It needs a star striker.

How much do you suggest we spend to get one?

[G-Ram]

I think it went wrong after the 2014 play off final when Morris was handed the keys to the club

[AndyinLiverpool]

Since Mel Morris took over, what good decisions has the club made that weren't necessary because of an early bad one?

[BucksRam]

18 minutes ago, California Ram. said:

With a hat tip to the mention of Charlie George’s injury, the true Derby answer is obviously ‘gypsy’s curse’. 

The bit that made me laugh was mention of ‘Mel Morris’s advisors’. I would argue the opposite - that he didn’t have consistent, senior advisors/board members.

I still don’t like all the criticism of him despite the mess. He backed managers and Rush with the money they asked for. He built an academy that we are rightly proud of. We want an owner to invest and he has done that. 

However, while the Leeds gamble on spending on promotion paid off, ours did not - and the pressure of FFP meant we could go no further with the manner of Lampard’s departure adding to the crisis. 

Where it has gone wrong this season is the gamble on Rooney as first player then manager, along with an arranged marriage with Rosenoir, the failed bid for Dursan, a dreadful injury crisis - particularly Bielik - and a decimated squad caused by the need to reduce a large wage bill (while wasting money on Ibe and Duncan)
 

Despite watching every game this season, first team and under 23. I actually still think we have a squad much better than our position - which lies the ‘blame’ on the coaching and management. 
 

 

The key word in all this, which overall I agree with, is gamble.  We've gambled a lot over the last year or two and very little of it has come off.  I don't quite agree with "wasting" money on Ibe and Duncan.  On paper they could have helped turn the tide - if Ibe, in particular had come in, got fit (mentally & physically) then I'm pretty sure he would have ended up taking King Colin's crown.  But it hasn't worked - a gamble that never paid off. Add it to the list sadly. 

[SecretDave]

I'd be happy with Ian Evatt. He has a really good record for a young manager and I'm sure he'd love to be at Derby. I'm also fed up of having celebrity status managers, would be nice to go for someone a bit more under the radar for once. Surely the compensation to Bolton wouldn't be too much.

I always remember when Jim Smith got appointed over much more glamorous names. Many fans were upset, but Jim proved all the doubters wrong in the end!

Sorry, posted this in the wrong thread by the way!!!

Edited April 21, 2021 by SecretDave

[Rammy03]

?

[jcidaho]

Little things like letting go of George Evans... why? He would go straight in the midfield now. Getting shot of Marriott and having 0 fit strikers for the first part of the season...

[Jimbo Ram]

1 minute ago, jcidaho said:

Little things like letting go of George Evans... why? He would go straight in the midfield now. Getting shot of Marriott and having 0 fit strikers for the first part of the season...

I can’t remember Evans having one decent game in midfield, average centre half for me....

[brady1993]

3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

Managers - Mac I, Clement, Pearson, Mac II, Rowett, Lampard, Cocu, Rooney... Not much consistency between one manager and the next.

15/16 - We already owned Keogh, Buxton and Shotton, we went out and signed Shackell and Pearce too. Thorne, Bryson, Hughes, Hendrick, we go out to sign Baird, Butterfield and Johnson all on permanent deals on high wages. Ince, Weimann, Camara, Blackman signed when we already had Russell and Dawkins. We had Forsyth, Olsson and Warnock all on permanent deals when we had a capable deputy in Lowe.

16/17 - signing Anya when we already had 6 wingers, 2 senior LBs and 2 RBs on the books. Loaning Martin out to another side chasing promotion, that making a mess of trying to get him back

17/18  - employing a manager who wanted to repalce young talent such as Hughes and Christie with ageing pros such as Wisdom and Huddlestone. Making a mess of the Kieftenbeld deal, whilst letting Bryson go out to a promotion rival

18/19 - Spending £5m on squad players (Jozefzoon, Holmes and Evans). Why sell Weimann for £2m if we have to spend £3m on Jozefzoon? Loaning Martin out again. Spending £3m on a LB who didn't improve the team.

19/20 - Spending out entire transfer budget on 1 player. Spending the remainder of our wage budget on an unfit player who doesn't suit the style of play 

It goes even further than that though.

Going into 15/16 we had a very well established style of play, a core team to build on top that I'm convinced if it wasn't for injuries would have gone up. All we need to do was inject a bit of quality here, a little bit of extra cover there and we'd be good to go. Instead we go out and sign a bunch of big (for the championship) name players, for large inflated fees, on stupid wages and almost everyone one of them wasn't suited to how we had been set up to play previously OR how Clement later wanted us to set up.

16/17 is the peak debacle in my eyes. After doing an admirable job we decide to not go for Wassell because he'd rubbed the fans the wrong and go for big tuff guy Pearson on the foolish notion that we needed someone to shout a lot at the players. He precedes to have what I think is the single most diabolical pre-season/transfer window/early season I think I've ever seen where he makes a litany of plain stupid decisions. We sign Vydra for mega money, despite him not performing for the past couple of season and to rub salt in it we kick out an almost perfect partner for him. We sign Anya for stupid fee for a player who'd never been more than "fine" because we needed another apparent runner. We get ourselves into trouble and so we turn to McClaren to dig us back out of it which he precedes to do only for us to sack at the first sign of a wobble because Rowett might go to Norwich and he's the current flavour of the month (despite being sacked by Birmingham for producing atrocious football). 

17/18 - it will sound soft and sentimental but part of my interest for football died when we sold Hughes. Not necessarily because he was gone, it was obvious to anyone that he would eventually but that we more or less kicked him out for peanuts.

17/18 and 18/19 I kinda put in the same camp of "seasons we should have consolidated and regrouped but instead kicked the can down the road". In both of those seasons we should have been clearing the decks, refreshing the squad, consolidating it around a talented core and looking to build again. Instead we let Rowett gamble on a bunch of old pros with a season left in them and let Lampard kick around money for fun without asking either to deal with the core issues that were creaking in the squad. 

[brady1993]

With all the issues that have happened in previous seasons, I don't think they are entirely why we are in the mire this season (although like I said before some of the high level decision making is symptomatic of a wider issue that's been going off ever since Mel Morris tookover). Whilst there's more to it than the following I think it there are a few key moments that help drive at the issues afoot.

1. The blackburn game, it's subsequent backlash and compromise. I still think this was really were Cocu went wrong, following the heavy defeat to Blackburn he was talked into compromising tactically which wasn't why we lost to Blackburn. What this meant is that for the remainder of his tenure we were in this weird tactical halfway house, with some players suited to a certain way and some to another and it ended up being a bit of a mess. It also hinted at some of the rumblings of Cocu being undermined that would continue right up until he left afterall it was so early in the season for such discussions to be taking place especially off the back of a moderately successful season.
2. Jozwiak's goal ruled out against Forest. With all the above said, this one feels like the real sliding doors moment to me. For the first time we had something like a full compliment of attacking players, the trio looked sharp and were playing with confidence. Had that goal stood and we'd taken the win away from it I have a suspicion we might well have kicked a little bit more than we did.
3. Rooney's retintroduction to the side. If there was one lesson we should have taken from the Blackburn game was that Rooney was done, there was evidence of that the previous season but it was painfully apparent at the start of this season. But we kept bending over backwards tactically trying to shoehorn him in and it completely derailed the little bit of momentum in terms of performances we had. 
4. A failure to act quickly and decisively following Cocu leaving along with not clearing the decks. Once Cocu left with a international break coming up, a few winnable fixtures coming up and the position we were in there was a need to act quickly with a clear plan of action. Instead we shrugged our shoulders and essentially told the coaches that didn't quit to sort it out between them. It was oustandingly mismanaged. We should have cleared out pretty much all of the first team staff for a clean slate and brough in somebody who could hit the ground running.
5. Rooney taking over with no new coaching staff. This follows on from the previous point but what we didn't need was a completely inexperienced underqualified manager taking over at that point and especially not without an injection of experienced coaching staff underneath them. And especially not when the person's professionalism in the season can easily be speculated upon.
6. A failure to capitalise on good performances against Swansea and Birmingham. Despite my reservations over Rooney, we actually stumbled upon an actually good plan of playing. The shift away from 4231 to 433 gave us a vastly increased fluidity to the side whilst not compromising the defensive solidity but it was quickly discarded to go back to an ineffective 4231 which teams were quickly working out how to snuff.
7. Bielik's injury. Don't feel like this needs much elaboration. He was head and shoulders the best player in the side and we'd set up the side to essentially be completely reliant on him.
8. The Cardiff debacle. This game I feel like enapsulates a lot of the problems that had lingered throughout Rooney's tenure. The chopping and changing of personal, setting up to stop teams, the tactical incosistency and out right strange tactical choices. This combination of factors is highly likely why we suddenly stopped looking even remotely solid and started conceding pretty easily.
9. Not sacking Rooney after the stoke game. I brought up at the time but this is when we probably should have acted. We were on a terrible run and everything was pointing towards it spiralling away from us. A new manager in at this point would have had an international break to get their feet under the table and an 8 game run to steady the ship.
10. Injuries to a host of players. Finally this is the factor that is likely going to be the straw that broke us. We were hit by key injuries to several key players in quick succession further compounding everything else that had gone before it and now we are left staring at the abyss praying that somehow we can scrape our way out if it.

[Ghost of Clough]

@brady1993 you've missed out the overuse of Bielik so soon after coming back from his injury.

After coming in for Rooney's 2nd game (Coventry), he only missed 23 minutes of football inside 3 months before egetting injured.

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

@brady1993 you've missed out the overuse of Bielik so soon after coming back from his injury.

After coming in for Rooney's 2nd game (Coventry), he only missed 23 minutes of football inside 3 months before egetting injured.

Blame rooney for a lot but not that, might as well blame the grounds man for the state of the pitch