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17 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Tomori and Mount weren't international nor playing for AC Milan at the time though. In fact, they were barely U21 players, with each making just 4 appearances out of 7(?) possible U21 matches.

I don't think we were carried to Wembley as such but their quality was obvious. Does it matter how many under 21 matches they played? Excellent footballers. Mount would have looked fine at a top Premier League club then as he does now. 

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Jury's out on Rooney at the moment. His man management skills appear much stronger than Lampard's - motivating Sibley and Waghorn, getting the best out of Kazim-Richards, bringing through more young players. But the football we play is absolutely dire, and the team selections are consistently pretty unimaginative.

Some of this is Cocu's legacy of unpenetrative possession football which obviously needed fixing. The one thing you can say for Cocu is that he used the academy well and integrated youngsters into the first-team squad. I feel like we're going backwards under Rooney in that regard. Buchanan has kicked on a bit, but Knight has been transformed into a midfield runner without much quality, and Bird and Sibley are both having poor seasons.

If our goal next season is staying in the Championship while cutting costs, then we should keep Rooney. He might manage a top-half finish. But I seriously doubt he could get us promoted, unless Erik Alonso buys a new team worth £100m and loans in a bunch of Real Madrid academy players. In which case any manager could probably get us up!

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12 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You could argue the defensive setup of the team has helped in keeping the goals against tally down. A direct consequence of that would be fewer goal in the goals scored column.

 

That's just kind of proved my point of it being more the managers tactics to blame than the players.

plus compromising goals to concede less is one thing, but 30 goals in 41 games is pathetic. There's many teams in this division who set up more defensively than us and score more.

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20 minutes ago, Posh Ram said:

Jury's out on Rooney at the moment. His man management skills appear much stronger than Lampard's - motivating Sibley and Waghorn, getting the best out of Kazim-Richards, bringing through more young players. But the football we play is absolutely dire, and the team selections are consistently pretty unimaginative.

Some of this is Cocu's legacy of unpenetrative possession football which obviously needed fixing. The one thing you can say for Cocu is that he used the academy well and integrated youngsters into the first-team squad. I feel like we're going backwards under Rooney in that regard. Buchanan has kicked on a bit, but Knight has been transformed into a midfield runner without much quality, and Bird and Sibley are both having poor seasons.

If our goal next season is staying in the Championship while cutting costs, then we should keep Rooney. He might manage a top-half finish. But I seriously doubt he could get us promoted, unless Erik Alonso buys a new team worth £100m and loans in a bunch of Real Madrid academy players. In which case any manager could probably get us up!

I don't see Rooney's stronger man management skills in respect of Sibley and Waggers...both were prolific goal scorers prior to this season whereas under Rooney they have become almost the exact opposite with barely a few goals between them....giving players bollockings for being unmotivated under your management is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted!

Failing to deal with the underlying reasons behind their current underwhelming performances is the issue.

I agree with the rest of your post tho mate👍

Edited by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong
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45 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Tomori and Mount weren't international nor playing for AC Milan at the time though. In fact, they were barely U21 players, with each making just 4 appearances out of 7(?) possible U21 matches.

You're telling me Mount wasn't an England international when he joined us on loan? Really?! Haha!

In all seriousness, though, I was being more than a little facetious with that Lampard comment, haha. I'm not his biggest fan.

But to explore your point a little further: Tomori had been out on loans at other clubs. Wilson had a successful loan at Liverpool. Mount was phenomenal at Vitesse. These weren't exactly unproven academy products. Mount and Wilson in particular were our big signings and came with a lot of fanfare if I remember rightly!

But all of the above means nothing anyway!

Regardless of what prior experience they had or hadn't had, they were three phenomenal players and, in my opinion, carried us to that final despite Lampard's inability to get a team to defend or form any semblance of a plan for the players going forward (Hmm, sounds a bit like his Chelsea side, too?!)

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39 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

You're telling me Mount wasn't an England international when he joined us on loan? Really?! Haha!

In all seriousness, though, I was being more than a little facetious with that Lampard comment, haha. I'm not his biggest fan.

But to explore your point a little further: Tomori had been out on loans at other clubs.

478 minutes at Brighton and half a season at Hull. He was absolutely awful when he first signed (as backup to Davies)

39 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Wilson had a successful loan at Liverpool.

14 games at Hull, admittedly with an incredible record.

39 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Mount was phenomenal at Vitesse.

1 season at a midtable Dutch side

39 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

These weren't exactly unproven academy products. Mount and Wilson in particular were our big signings and came with a lot of fanfare if I remember rightly!

But all of the above means nothing anyway!

Regardless of what prior experience they had or hadn't had, they were three phenomenal players and, in my opinion, carried us to that final despite Lampard's inability to get a team to defend or form any semblance of a plan for the players going forward (Hmm, sounds a bit like his Chelsea side, too?!)

 

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49 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I don't see Rooney's stronger man management skills in respect of Sibley and Waggers...both were prolific goal scorers prior to this season whereas under Rooney they have become almost the exact opposite with barely a few goals between them....giving players bollockings for being unmotivated under your management is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted!

Failing to deal with the underlying reasons behind their current underwhelming performances is the issue.

I agree with the rest of your post tho mate👍

Yes, bollocking players in public is not my method of motivating them...

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2 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

"Can you envisage any of those players being a key cog in a team with promotion aspirations?

Mengi possibly 18 months from now.

The rest? No, thanks."

Maybe I should've read this in context, but you seem to be implying our squad isn't good enough.

The reason I brought up Lampard is that you're saying we need an experienced manager to achieve a promotion push, but we reached them with a manager who was in his 1st year of management.  The right man is the right man, regardless of experience.

Rooney may not be the right man, but I think you're undervaluing the job he's done since he took over.  The team was on it's arse and even though he's made mistakes, he has brought about an improvement, despite being hamstrung by financial constraints, & serious injuries.

 

No, I am suggesting the January signings were poor and are not good enough if we have aspirations of promotion moving forward.

I am not undervaluing anything Rooney has done. People said the same to me when I suggested Cocu was not the right man to take us forward if we wanted promotion, and the evidence of that soon became impossible to ignore.

Rooney has had a very good spell and he has had a very poor spell, and when you balance the two, he may have done just enough to keep us up, but don’t we want more than that?

I am not sure how anyone can say with confidence Rooney is the man to take us forward. We were four wins from safety at the end of February. We are now one or two bad results from being back in the bottom three. 

Rooney’s poor spell is in danger of invalidating all of the good work he did in the earlier part of his tenure.

Every manager can suffer a poor spell from time to time, but the call for experience is because an experienced manager is likely to have the tools to find his way out of a bad spell and get the club moving forward again.

Can we say that with any certainty about Rooney?

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14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

478 minutes at Brighton and half a season at Hull. He was absolutely awful when he first signed (as backup to Davies)

14 games at Hull, admittedly with an incredible record.

1 season at a midtable Dutch side

 

All pointless information as none of this changes the fact that all three carried us to the final 🙃

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I've seen posts saying that the 5 loans we made in January were all we could get. I've also seen posts saying Rooney had to sell Evans, whittaker etc to pay the wages. 

Is there any actual data on how much the January loans have cost us in terms of wages and/or fees?

Be surprising if so.....and if a cost has been incurred then it would seem reasonable to form a view of the value for money. 

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The stats show that since Rooney took sole charge, we would have been 12th in the league over his 28 games - that's even with our terrible run of recent form and some difficult off the field situations to deal with.

Don't forget after 13 games we had just 6 points

I guess he will be fully judged after the next 5 games

 

 

Edited by SamUltraRam
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21 minutes ago, SamUltraRam said:

The stats show that since Rooney took sole charge, we would have been 12th in the league over his 28 games - that's even with our terrible run of recent form and some difficult off the field situations to deal with.

Don't forget after 13 games we had just 6 points

I guess he will be fully judged after the next 5 games

 

 

A more likely projection basis would be to use Rooney’s record without Bielik as we're going to be without him for quite a while. 

I put up some data on another thread to show that Bielik's presence basically added 1 point per game over the 12 games he played relative to form without him.

Extrapolate that and we will finish on 47 points. Which sounds dicey. Rooney needs to conjure some improvement from the rest. 

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1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

 

 

Every manager can suffer a poor spell from time to time, but the call for experience is because an experienced manager is likely to have the tools to find his way out of a bad spell and get the club moving forward again.

 

I can't say with confidence who can take us forward imo, Look at the fantastic job JFH is doing at Burton, Grant McCann at Hull City equally so, Would any of these 2 been able to take us forward?, 3 very experienced managers in Nigel Pearson at Bristol City, Tony Mowbray at Blackburn and Alex Neil ex Preston 1 failure and 2 having an awfull time, Does experience get what we all want?

There's so many variables in picking what we all think is going to be the right manager, A lot is down to luck ie a good/bad calls by officials, Lack of injuries, New players hitting the ground running, Having a good budget, Picking the right coaches...and more.

Is Pep at Man City a good Manager or is it he's had 100s of millions of £s at the clubs he's managed, The special one at Spurs is finding it tough when you have an owner who won't dig deep enough in his pockets, Sean Dyche, Success is keeping Burnley in the Premier league.

I would loved to have seen the 3 managers above cope with what DCFC have thrown at our last 2 Managers.

 

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23 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I can't say with confidence who can take us forward imo, Look at the fantastic job JFH is doing at Burton, Grant McCann at Hull City equally so, Would any of these 2 been able to take us forward?, 3 very experienced managers in Nigel Pearson at Bristol City, Tony Mowbray at Blackburn and Alex Neil ex Preston 1 failure and 2 having an awfull time, Does experience get what we all want?

Spot on. I just think there are bigger problems at this club than the manager. Rooney should carry on next season if we stay up. We need a better recruitment strategy before we can start saying who and who isn't right for the job.

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4 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I don't see Rooney's stronger man management skills in respect of Sibley and Waggers...both were prolific goal scorers prior to this season whereas under Rooney they have become almost the exact opposite with barely a few goals between them....giving players bollockings for being unmotivated under your management is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted!

Failing to deal with the underlying reasons behind their current underwhelming performances is the issue.

I agree with the rest of your post tho mate👍

Didn’t Waghorn score 12 goals ( including 2 penalties) last season? If so, I wouldn’t really describe that as prolific (I don’t know how many games he played mind).

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7 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Roberts does have good moments. But we already have two very similar players in terms of productivity and consistency in Lawrence and Jozwiak.

If he were to stay, he’d only be third or fourth choice next season, so what is in it for us or him?

Roberts has done more and looked better in his couple of substitute appearances than either of those 2 jokers have done all season.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

No, I am suggesting the January signings were poor and are not good enough if we have aspirations of promotion moving forward.

I am not undervaluing anything Rooney has done. People said the same to me when I suggested Cocu was not the right man to take us forward if we wanted promotion, and the evidence of that soon became impossible to ignore.

Rooney has had a very good spell and he has had a very poor spell, and when you balance the two, he may have done just enough to keep us up, but don’t we want more than that?

I am not sure how anyone can say with confidence Rooney is the man to take us forward. We were four wins from safety at the end of February. We are now one or two bad results from being back in the bottom three. 

Rooney’s poor spell is in danger of invalidating all of the good work he did in the earlier part of his tenure.

Every manager can suffer a poor spell from time to time, but the call for experience is because an experienced manager is likely to have the tools to find his way out of a bad spell and get the club moving forward again.

Can we say that with any certainty about Rooney?

The January signings were not made with "aspirations of promotion" they were made to keep us in this league.

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