The East Midlands Derby - Lost the spark?

[AGR]

Now the dust has settled on another damp squib between the two of us, its got me thinking what has happened to this match? When we were relegated in 2008 and Forest got promoted from League 1 and the two teams were reunited in the same league for a few years, some of the games were absolutely brilliant, especially when it was Clough vs Davies in the dugouts. But now, I can't remember the last game that I would have watched all the way through if I was a neutral. What are the key factors that have made this fixture lose its spark?

• Covid - There's no doubt that playing behind closed doors has affected all derbies up and down the country so the intensity was never going to be the same, but I don't think this is the sole reason. Some of the games pre-covid were poor as well, the two in the Lampard season were dreadful for saying the quality of our side at the time
• Atmosphere - The atmosphere at the games are generally good, albeit not helped by the 12:15 kick offs and Monday nights, however I still feel they were a lot better a few years ago when both teams gave the away fans a larger allocation (I think it was about 4.5k, now it is just under 3k). I can't see this being reversed any time soon as both Derby and Forest have season ticket holders in the sections next to the away fans whereas previously they were left empty
• Forest Managers - This may seem a very biased viewpoint from a Derby fan but there's no doubt in recent years that a lot of the Notts Forest managers have been very defensive minded. The only one I can think of in recent years was Warburton that played attacking football, in the games with Lamouchi and Karanka, Forest were very happy putting 10 or 11 men behind the ball and taking their chances from set pieces or the counter attack. The match last year at their place that they won I can't remember them having a single chance apart from Bogle's dodgy back pass which led to their goal
• Ex Players/ Managers - The fixture always had added spice when it was there were players and managers that had connections to both clubs; Clough, Davies, McClaren, Earnshaw, Tyson, Commons, Ward, I'm sure I've missed a couple. Now there is only Cyrus Christie who I don't think either set of fans care enough about to get riled up by. By the looks of things on Twitter, Notts Forest fans seem to resent him the most
• Stagnation - I think this is probably the main reason. Both clubs have been stuck in the Championship for what seems like an eternity. I'd imagine both sets of fans are as bored as each other now, with neither looking any closer to promotion that we did 5 or 6 years ago. Perhaps a few seasons apart would do the fixture some good, hopefully with us heading in the right direction
• Lack of quality - Again I think this is probably one of the main reasons. Both squads have deteriorated over the last 10 years at different stages without doubt. One of the best games I can remember in recent years was the 1-1 draw at their place when Assombalonga gave them the lead late on and Shotton equalised even later on. That game was end to end and the second half especially was electric. Back then we had; Hughes, Bryson, Hendrick, Russell, Ibe and Martin at their peak and Forest had a half decent team with Antonio, Lansbury, Assombalonga and Chris Burke. Now the two sides have no where near the same attacking quality. Although in the Lampard season you could argue that our team was just as good and should've performed better on the occasion.
• Brian Clough Trophy - Does this have any effect on the fixture. Forest seem very keen to remind us that we've not beaten them for however many days it is (since the game when Vydra scored from kick off), but the reality is that most games in that period have been draws and poor games (I don't count the league cup tie) which is nothing really to brag about. When the scores are level with a few minutes to go do you think Forest are keen just to defend a draw to retain the trophy (probably not, but its a possibility)

What do you think is the main factor? Or am I talking absolute nonsense and the fixture still has the spark for you?

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Would say mostly due to covid and no fans. Every match has lost its spark. Maybe we are also sick of playing each other, plus there are not as many fights and red cards as there were a few years ago (seemed to be constant). 

[Nuwtfly]

Football in general has lost its spark for me, and won't get it back until fans return to the stadiums ? 

[Ravabeerbelly]

Derby games mean nothing without the fans. Players can harp on about bragging rights and “doing it for the fans” but the reality is, unless there are a host of homegrown academy products in BOTH sides, no fans in the ground mean it’s just another game for players who are in the main just ‘passing through’

[angieram]

I think the biggest factor outside of Covid is the moving of kick off times to suit the police and/or Sky.

[BBG83]

You need fans creating an atmosphere and a set of players on both teams to care enough. They don't though. Its just another game in their career to them. Plus the rules that have been implemented over the years means that the first heavy tackle (to get everyone going) is likely to be punished by a red card.

Boring ain't it.

[RadioactiveWaste]

I do think both being stuck in the championship has had an effect over time, especially when it isn't looking like either of us are seriously going to make it out.

[Turk Thrust]

1 hour ago, AGR said:

 

• Ex Players/ Managers - The fixture always had added spice when it was there were players and managers that had connections to both clubs; Clough, Davies, McClaren, Earnshaw, Tyson, Commons, Ward, I'm sure I've missed a couple. Now there is only Cyrus Christie who I don't think either set of fans care enough about to get riled up by. 

There’s also Hennessy, Todd, Shilton, Burns, Bohinen, Hodge, Camp, Tudgay, Charles etc,  But for me is always been Derby v Leeds that’s got a spark

[VulcanRam]

Even with fans in, the games, particularly the homes ones, had become dull. 

@AGR raises some good and legitimate points. Poorer talent, complacency at playing each other season in season out, mid table games, all good reasons.

One thing that came to mind on Friday though as I shouted at the telly for someone just to stick one of the Forest players in the stand and liven the whole thing up, is that some of the great tackles, busts ups and incidents that really spark these kinds of games now result in red cards far easier than they used to and players just don't take the risks they did.

Oh, and the Brian Clough trophy? Pointless and unnecessary.

[Curtains]

27 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

I do think both being stuck in the championship has had an effect over time, especially when it isn't looking like either of us are seriously going to make it out.

I don’t watch any other games in Championship other than the games Derby are in .

I only watch Premier League and Champions League and International games live now .

I find the EFL boring 

Watch bits of U23 games on RAMS TV 

PS I will watch occasional Championship games goals on SSN if they effect Derby’s League position and I always follow scores above League 1 mostly .

Look out for Burton and Mansfield scores though mostly because of NC 

Regarding EM Derby I switched TV off after they scored but turned it on again just as Colin scored .

It’s so tense watching Derby these days  

Can’t wait to get back to PP to be honest .
 

[AGR]

40 minutes ago, angieram said:

I think the biggest factor outside of Covid is the moving of kick off times to suit the police and/or Sky.

Agree. I seem to remember very few of the Clough vs Davies games were on sky and tended to be 1pm kick offs (still a pain but not as bad as 12:15 on a Saturday, 12:00 on a Sunday or 7:45 on a Monday night)

[AGR]

12 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Even with fans in, the games, particularly the homes ones, had become dull. 

@AGR raises some good and legitimate points. Poorer talent, complacency at playing each other season in season out, mid table games, all good reasons.

One thing that came to mind on Friday though as I shouted at the telly for someone just to stick one of the Forest players in the stand and liven the whole thing up, is that some of the great tackles, busts ups and incidents that really spark these kinds of games now result in red cards far easier than they used to and players just don't take the risks they did.

Oh, and the Brian Clough trophy? Pointless and unnecessary.

Agree, players a terrified now of putting a foot in incase a ref wants to make a name for themselves and give them a straight red. The diving from Riberio in the first half nearly got Knight booked and it wasn't even a foul, could tell from where the ball went after that Knight got the ball first.

I disagree that the Brian Clough Trophy is pointless and unnecessary, its a nice sentiment and legacy but think it should be the Clough & Taylor trophy

[Alty_Ram]

34 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

Derby games mean nothing without the fans. Players can harp on about bragging rights and “doing it for the fans” but the reality is, unless there are a host of homegrown academy products in BOTH sides, no fans in the ground mean it’s just another game for players who are in the main just ‘passing through’

This for me. With the best will in the world there's no way that the usual buzz and expectation can possibly be recreated for the players, particularly those who have no association with the fixture or the city/cities. They will obviously be aware that the game really matters to the fans but it's not the same.

Take the game the other day and put that in front of a packed PP. CKR scores an 84th minute equaliser and although it was a bit frenetic for the last few minutes in an empty stadium it's not the same as having 30k fans willing you forward for the last few minutes with the forest fans suddenly silent and nervous and barely able to watch after being unbearable for most of the 2nd half. 92nd minute, a Forest attack breaks down and Knight breaks quickly with 30k Rams fans roaring him on. CKR senses the moment and is lifted by the crowd and despite being exhausted he digs deep for one more lung busting effort and Knight picks him out and CKR's sliding half volley goes in off the underside of the bar and he wheels off to celebrate with the seething mass of rams fans who have poured down into the corner.

Marvellous ?

[Ram-Alf]

Football football football is slowly dying for me, Derby-Forest games were the 2 matches i'd look for when the fixtures are released, You pencil both the games into your memory and it's stuck there.

Without fans for me it just becomes a big friendly game, Football over the years had taken the fans for granted, Chuck the chickfeed down and we'd feed on it, We were seen as a cash cow then thrown away like a used fast food take away wrapper, Now with Covid those with influence in the game realise...we count.

It's not just the East Mids Derby, It's the Liverpool-Everton, Man City-Man Untd, Aresenal-Spurs, Rangers-Celtic, Brighton-Palace and others that without us are as plastic as a Londoner supporting Man City.

VAR aint helped either ??

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, AGR said:

 

What do you think is the main factor? Or am I talking absolute nonsense and the fixture still has the spark for you?

No fans. 

It's not just the east midlands Derby though, all football is currently suffering. No fans equals no emotion. 

Understandable though due to the pandemic, and hopefully next season will be more 'normal'

[Foreveram]

Can you imagine a packed pride park watching that CKR goal going in and then VAR saying checking possible hand ball

[Chris_Martin]

28 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Can you imagine a packed pride park watching that CKR goal going in and then VAR saying checking possible hand ball

VAR  OUT!!!!

[AGR]

36 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Can you imagine a packed pride park watching that CKR goal going in and then VAR saying checking possible hand ball

Not worth thinking about, it would have been disallowed as well.

Reckon it would have disallowed their goal at their place this season and given us a penalty Friday night and sent Ribiero off so swings and roundabouts I guess but still wouldn't want VAR

[AGR]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

I don’t watch any other games in Championship other than the games Derby are in .

I only watch Premier League and Champions League and International games live now .

I find the EFL boring 

Watch bits of U23 games on RAMS TV 

PS I will watch occasional Championship games goals on SSN if they effect Derby’s League position and I always follow scores above League 1 mostly .

Look out for Burton and Mansfield scores though mostly because of NC 

Regarding EM Derby I switched TV off after they scored but turned it on again just as Colin scored .

It’s so tense watching Derby these days  

Can’t wait to get back to PP to be honest .
 

I also missed the goal, I turned it off in a mard part way through the second half when Christie was taking an age over a throw in. Saw that we'd equalised via twitter and ran back downstairs for the last 7 mins. 

Did the same last year and missed Martin's 97th minute equaliser. When will I learn to just see it through?

[Brammie Steve]

All of the above!