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Coronavirus part 2. Whitty’s Revenge


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15 hours ago, Andicis said:

Huh? How so?

You think this has been strict?

Take shops as an example. During lockdown 1, the not really essential shops such as B&Q were using click and collect, whereas now it's a free for all with as many people walking in store as possible. Supermarkets were limiting numbers, now it's unrestricted. People are still going to work, even if they don't need to go into the office. You're allowed to go to the park and similar places.

That's not even taking into account the numbers who are ignoring rules unpunished. Large groups of kids roaming the streets at night, kicking bins into the middle of the road... Friends and family popping round to visit each other...

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I guess there will be a few on here who think that the lockdown release should happen a lot quicker - and with the success of the vaccines in terms of severity of illness and now apparent 75 odd % reduction in transmission, I have a fair bit of sympathy with that view.

Of course what we need to avoid is a new variant which renders the current vaccines useless and we end up back at square one, so there has to be some focus on keeping the number of cases down.

I can see the government coming under pressure from all sides to accelerate things if/when the hospital numbers drop as expected but cases stay high, as restrictions start to be slackened and people inevitably become more relaxed about things. It could be a very sensitive balancing act indeed. At least the weather should be on our side for the upcoming months.

Not making any particular point. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject.

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The government are thinking of introducing a vaccination passport, which would be needed to gain entry into pubs and other establishments of entertainment.

Is this a backdoor way of introducing a national identity card? Something that had been mutted at a few years ago, but never became a serious possibility back then. 

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14 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Of course what we need to avoid is a new variant which renders the current vaccines useless and we end up back at square one, so there has to be some focus on keeping the number of cases down.

That really is the big issue.

The biggest danger period is when you roll out vaccines in a large scale (the current phase is probably the largest mass-innoculation this country has ever seen), you can end up with people being infected before the vaccine has taken full effect - and that is a prime candidate for how you end up with vaccine-resistant viruses.

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3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That really is the big issue.

The biggest danger period is when you roll out vaccines in a large scale (the current phase is probably the largest mass-innoculation this country has ever seen), you can end up with people being infected before the vaccine has taken full effect - and that is a prime candidate for how you end up with vaccine-resistant viruses.

It seems like a positive that so far the vaccine companies don't think the mutations are evading the vaccine. Could be that the new RNA vaccines are a bit more resilient? Or we just don't know. Another positive is that this is surely the most studied virus in the history of humankind, so we have to be hopeful that the vaccines can be tweaked and boosters offered when needed

🤞

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21 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It seems like a positive that so far the vaccine companies don't think the mutations are evading the vaccine. Could be that the new RNA vaccines are a bit more resilient? Or we just don't know. Another positive is that this is surely the most studied virus in the history of humankind, so we have to be hopeful that the vaccines can be tweaked and boosters offered when needed

🤞

There’s thought a lot of these mutations are occurring in immune compromised people who harbour the virus for months, and one particular danger is giving them convalescent plasma, which is basically plasma from recovered covid infected, which seems to place even more evolutionary pressure on the virus to mutate.

Vaccines should still stop serious illness and death in the majority unless the spike was missing- then it wouldn’t be a coronavirus and could not get in cells.

There is also the people who don't get vaccinated, for some reason people believe the only risk is to them when this happens and not what you talk about in mutations and the possibility of impacting the efficacy of the vaccine. 

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14 minutes ago, BIllyD said:

There’s thought a lot of these mutations are occurring in immune compromised people who harbour the virus for months, and one particular danger is giving them convalescent plasma, which is basically plasma from recovered covid infected, which seems to place even more evolutionary pressure on the virus to mutate.

I'm no virologist but I thought the process of mutation wasn't really a deliberate act on the part of the virus - just that mutations happen randomly all the time, and if a random mutation happens to be one that makes it easier to infect (like the kent variant) or in future evade the vector of the vaccine, then that strain will automatically become the most prevalent?

 

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43 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I'm no virologist but I thought the process of mutation wasn't really a deliberate act on the part of the virus - just that mutations happen randomly all the time, and if a random mutation happens to be one that makes it easier to infect (like the kent variant) or in future evade the vector of the vaccine, then that strain will automatically become the most prevalent?

 

My understanding for what it's worth is that it isn't deliberate, but does what you say. The problem being that the more hosts you have the more chance you have of getting a strain that if it's avoiding the vaccine or easier to infect will become more prevalent.

 

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2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You think this has been strict?

Take shops as an example. During lockdown 1, the not really essential shops such as B&Q were using click and collect, whereas now it's a free for all with as many people walking in store as possible. Supermarkets were limiting numbers, now it's unrestricted. People are still going to work, even if they don't need to go into the office. You're allowed to go to the park and similar places.

That's not even taking into account the numbers who are ignoring rules unpunished. Large groups of kids roaming the streets at night, kicking bins into the middle of the road... Friends and family popping round to visit each other...

We're in the strictest lockdown in the developed world though? You were allowed to go to the park the first time around were you not? Ultimately, you're not going to get 100% compliance, but the rules are actually stricter now than in March of last year. Unless you're welding people into houses I don't see how you can make it stricter, or really why you'd want to.

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5 hours ago, 1of4 said:

The government are thinking of introducing a vaccination passport, which would be needed to gain entry into pubs and other establishments of entertainment.

Is this a backdoor way of introducing a national identity card? Something that had been mutted at a few years ago, but never became a serious possibility back then. 

No. I can't see it myself. Besides, what's wrong with national ID cards?

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2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

No. I can't see it myself. Besides, what's wrong with national ID cards?

Must admit I don't see an issue.  It was tried before in the noughties but came to nothing. 

I personally see no issue with it,  a bit like cctv.

If you aren't doing anything wrong then no harm in people knowing what you are doing. 

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Don't buy the 'if you're not doing anything wrong' argument. Flipping that around, if you're not doing anything wrong you've no reason to accept being tracked in the first place. Equally, those up to no good won't comply anyway and there's also an argument that those who resist erosion of protected privacies may well find themselves targeted for further scrutiny simply on that basis alone and not because of any wrongdoing.

To my way of thinking, vaccine passports and ID cards serve very different purposes and while I can see a bona fide argument for the one, I see none at all for the other. It's ironic that nations with the most embedded and protected human rights and privacy legislation are quite often the most flippant about surrendering those rights. 

 

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5 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

No. I can't see it myself. Besides, what's wrong with national ID cards?

On the face of it nothing but there's summat a bit George Orwell 1984 about it to me. ID cards, having to prove who you are as you go about your daily business, I dunno, its not raite.

I'm probably just an old bugger being cynical but I really don't trust the people controlling us. 

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9 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Don't buy the 'if you're not doing anything wrong' argument. Flipping that around, if you're not doing anything wrong you've no reason to accept being tracked in the first place. Equally, those up to no good won't comply anyway and there's also an argument that those who resist erosion of protected privacies may well find themselves targeted for further scrutiny simply on that basis alone and not because of any wrongdoing.

To my way of thinking, vaccine passports and ID cards serve very different purposes and while I can see a bona fide argument for the one, I see none at all for the other. It's ironic that nations with the most embedded and protected human rights and privacy legislation are quite often the most flippant about surrendering those rights. 

 

Its about tiny steps of erosion for me. 

So if you have to carry a card saying you have been vaccinated to get in somewhere... what if you aren't able to have the vaccine for health issues? What about if you have it this year but decide you don't want it annually? What about when it isn't free and you have to pay for it every year? What about if they insist your children should have it? What about if they say you need 2 or 3 different vaccines because it has mutated so much? What about if the argument shifts to having the flu vaccine...or every other infectious disease? What about if its then suggested it says on this ID card if you have been convicted of sex/violent crimes so are a risk to people? Or for your own 'ease' the ID card contains proof that you have a 'condition' so don't need to wear a mask? 

In isolation there is no issue for many people with any of this...so where does the line get drawn? Once you start it is much harder to roll back and personally I have happily lived for 40+ years without wanting it. 

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1 minute ago, Chester40 said:

Its about tiny steps of erosion for me. 

So if you have to carry a card saying you have been vaccinated to get in somewhere... what if you aren't able to have the vaccine for health issues? What about if you have it this year but decide you don't want it annually? What about when it isn't free and you have to pay for it every year? What about if they insist your children should have it? What about if they say you need 2 or 3 different vaccines because it has mutated so much? What about if the argument shifts to having the flu vaccine...or every other infectious disease? What about if its then suggested it says on this ID card if you have been convicted of sex/violent crimes so are a risk to people? Or for your own 'ease' the ID card contains proof that you have a 'condition' so don't need to wear a mask? 

In isolation there is no issue for many people with any of this...so where does the line get drawn? Once you start it is much harder to roll back and personally I have happily lived for 40+ years without wanting it. 

 A lot of whataboutary there. 

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2 hours ago, Chester40 said:

...... What about if its then suggested it says on this ID card if you have been convicted of sex/violent crimes so are a risk to people?....

I long ago proposed a solution for that one - a damn big tattoo across the forehead - or alternatively indelible dye to turn their heads bright yellow....they can then proudly carry their ID card safe in the knowledge that it won't contain details of their offences....

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Having a vaccination passport/national ID is in itself a good thing imo - if you've been jabbed, you are free to go about your business.

The concern is however that these things creep and governments change every few years, a vaccine passport could very easily morph into a credit score system similar to the one China uses and you could end up being denied real world services for not taking enough exercise, play computer games or having the wrong opinions etc.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Its a NO from me!

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  • Boycie changed the title to Coronavirus part 2. Whitty’s Revenge

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